SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I recently got a new IC. My previous one told me that basically my WW cheated because I had failed to met her needs and I had to own my responsibilities for her affair. So dropped that dude and got a new one. So far she’s awesome, very scientific and methodical, very experienced with men and women cheating.

She did hit me hard though last session. She said I wasn’t responsible for the affair, but that I do have to accept that I helped create a relationship where vulnerability existed for an affair. That my WW was very likely emotionally starved because of my lack of EI and detachment. My IC said it was very common for guys like me to be cheated on because of this. No she wasn’t blaming me for the A, it was more of a warning that any relationship I will have this is an issue that would be best dealt with, otherwise I may find it difficult.

There is some truth to this, I won’t argue. And it seems to be true with a lot of wives who cheat, especially in marriages that are over 10 years. I’ve read thousands of stories both from WS/BS and a reoccurring theme is a phrase that my WW said as well. That she wasn’t seen. I am not saying "all women" but it definitely is a more common phrase I seen WWs use over WHs. Even without infidelity, more women than men initiate divorce, at least from the major studies that are available online, and something along the lines of not being seen is often a reason.

I openly admit I am working on my EI and self awareness, but I don’t really understand what it means "to be seen". I told my WW daily how much I appreciated her, how beautiful she was, compliments on her outfits/haircut the small things she did. Thanked her for the daily chores she did. I slacked in some areas to be sure, but really I am trying to figure out what the hell it means to be seen.

To me, especially post affair, it sounds like a void that can never be filled and nothing I could do would be enough. I think there is some truth to that, because I don’t understand cheating as an option.

But I am curious, what does it mean to be seen in a relationship?

Have you spoken about this with your wife?

No, not really. The problem is a lot of things she said I wasn’t doing were occurring during the early stages of the EA, so it’s hard to distinguish between what is a real issue vs what is an excuse to keep adding fuel to the EA.

I don’t think anything I would have done would have prevented it, so it’s hard for me to hear her at the moment. It’s why I’m asking for others opinions on it

I do not pretend to possess any wisdom on this account, but I can relate my experiences in my own marriage which may or may not prove helpful to you. For the first 10 years of my marriage (a marriage which, to my knowledge, has not been marred by infidelity) my wife and I got along very well for the most part. Occasionally we would have some fights, and I was never really clear on their underlying reason. It always seemed to me that she was reacting to something in a way which I could not empathize nor agree with. In short, I felt she was blowing something out of proportion over a misunderstanding. We’d fight, make up, life would go on, and by and large the marriage was very good save for a few of these fights. As years went on they happened more frequently.

Around the 10 year mark we both sought individual therapy. Not necessarily due to our marriage, but because we both knew we had unresolved traumas that needed to be exercised. Her background is complex with significant childhood trauma, and my issues (many of which also stemmed from my childhood - though I did not realize it at the time) were also complex, though my childhood was much tamer compared to hers. I did have a lot to unpack from my time in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the 10 years of brutal training it took to become a physician.

Then something interesting happened. After about being in therapy for 2 years, we sat down and talked. Really talked. Like it was the first time in our marriage. We kept talking like that ever since, and we haven’t had a fight since. What did we talk about? It turns out, I had been harboring some deep resentments of her from our early years together. Let’s just say that she treated me poorly. There were 1 or 2 specific incidents of profound disrespect for which I deeply resented her, along with a host of other minor issues. This was in response to a horrific event that happened in her life, and I was a safe harbor so she took much of it out on me. Not just me, many of her relationships suffered which she has since rebuilt to an amazing degree. She struggled with jobs, coworkers, me…. I held these deep resentments even unbeknownst to me. As a result, I would pull back from the relationship. This in turn made her feel unseen, isolated, and insecure. As she later told me: "I felt alone for years."

It really broke my heart to hear her say that because I know I was largely responsible. It broke her heart to hear about my resentments because she knew she was largely responsible. We agreed that we were both responsible for the state of our marriage. We laid all our cards out on the table without holding anything back, and after a close examination, we determined that none of this was a dealbreaker, and we could continue to be married. Our love for each other never wavered, but there were times we didn’t like each other as much.

Since that time, we are completely honest with each other. If she is sensing that I’m feeling off, I talk to her about it. I open up completely. Then, more often than not, I realize that my actions could certainly make it obvious something was wrong. So if I did what I (and men) often do, and just say "it’s fine." She would intuitively know that 1) it’s not fine, and 2) I’m not opening up to her. This creates distance, tension and insecurity. Now when she mentions something like this, I take a minute to really examine my feelings. Almost always she’s right, and then I tell her what it is that’s bothering me. No holds barred, I just lay it out. The funny thing is, is that since we’ve actually started communicating, it’s never her that’s bothering me. Then she helps me with it and we tackle it as a team.

The same for her. If I ask her a question about what’s bothering her, she tells me. Then I try to actively listen to what she’s saying, and how it’s making her feel. From here, I just validate her feelings, and offer support however she needs it. If she wants my opinion she’ll ask for it, if she wants help she’ll ask for it, more often than not she just wants to vent about something. I listen, validate her feelings, and in the end she tells me "thank you" and embraces me.

I think this is what they mean by being seen and heard. You understand at a fundamental level what they’re going through, and you understand because you have actively listened and then supported them. Before, I would listen with the intention of fixing. But she didn’t need that. She felt like I was dismissing what was important to her (how she felt about it) and supplanting it with what I needed (to fix the problem and make it go away). By not hearing what she needed, I inadvertently made her problems about me. She felt isolated and alone. Put in that perspective, I can understand why she felt alone, and what’s more I can agree with her that it must have been lonely, frightening and emotionally draining.

That’s how I internalize it. I hope it helps. It’s not the answer, just an answer.

I think the one-word answer to your question is "empathy." If you can really understand what someone is feeling, you can be there for them at the most foundational level.

Ahhh, I am a Betrayed Wife who has tried for 23 years to R any semblance of a M of two persons who love one another, and this theme of NOT being seen is central to our difficulties, still today. Although, it sounds like you have said many things that I have rarely if ever heard, so I give you a lot of credit for sending your WW those messages! So then, what is this feeling "not seen" which your therapist is telling you about?

I can only speak about what I have felt, but let's give it a go: it's like it's almost a mechanistic, reflexive INSTINCT in communication, that is either functioning well, or is not functioning well. And as such, it is a skill that can be acquired! I took a course in this and the local colleges offer courses on "interpersonal communications." Many people don't grow up learning how to communicate, beyond basic sending OUT their own signals. "Seeing" consists of effectively processing the other person's signals, AND MAKING SURE THEY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE PROCESSED THEIR SIGNALS. A lot of people don't know how to do that naturally.

Example: I tell my fWH what is bothering me, and he listens and replies "Okay." He then believes he has attended to my complaint, but his just replying "Okay" is not showing me he truly "sees" the issue, for a couple of reasons: He didn't elaborate on what I talked about, and he didn't express any empathy of feeling, like "Oh, yeah, I would feel similar..." AND, the worst part of this, is he thinks he has adequately addressed my statement! Whereas, to me he has just made a simple comment that I can't glean much meaning from. I walk away wondering 'Does he really care?' Hard to tell. I don't get a hell of a lot out of hearing "Okay."

I could go on, but there is a thought for you.

I want to follow up briefly to say this: people throw around this "i’m not seen" stuff like it’s air they’re breathing. It’s a buzzword these days, but it does have deep meaning when it comes from someone who understands that.

A lot of waywards will probably throw this out without having 1) any understanding of what they actually mean, and 2) with no intention of reciprocating. It’s just ammunition to fight back against a world they are rapidly losing control of.

But in the right couple, who is really with each other on a deep level, it means everything. If my wife came to me today and told me she didn’t feel seen, that would set off massive alarms in my head and we would sit down immediately and have a discussion about it. I’d have to listen to what she was saying and what she meant without putting it through my own filter. I would be very concerned about the state of my marriage and recognize immediately something needed to change.

But if you’re not getting anything remotely like that in a reciprocal manner from your spouse who has been cheating, I would not give it nearly as much credence. Yeah maybe she didn’t really feel heard. It was entirely her choice on what she actively chose to do about it. It just feels like in the wrong hands it can be used as a way to deflect blame, by someone who is not emotionally mature enough in that moment, to accept the reality of what they have done.

OMG, thank you for asking the question. I was beginning to think I was the only person that didn't know what the ever-loving fuck "Being seen" meant.

I've been hearing this phrase from my wife for the last 5 months and it's been maddening for me. She can't actually define what she's talking about. My individual counselors have no idea, one literally stopped me mid-session and said, "I don't know what that means to 'not be seen', I'm sorry".

I've looked online, I even read David Brooks book "How to know a person" and the phrase still seem too abstract for me.

@Justsendit
Thank you for your post, this was extremely helpful for me! I feel like you understand and are capable of exactly what my WW is looking for, and it makes me jealous and saddened to know that it appears possible I'm just not up to the task.

@Superesse
Thank you for the examples. This is also very helpful. I've been asking my wife to explain this to me for months and it just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Here's my major problem with it. I walk this earth "seen" because WHO GIVES A FUCK if they see me or not? If they don't see me, I don't wait around for their validation. They will see me one way or another, as I'll keep living and moving on regardless of if they understand me or not. That's their problem for not understanding me or giving me signals back that they understand me. I'm self-sustaining and self-aware of the fact that not all people are going to "get it" and that's ok.

I also understand that having the ability to empathize with other people is a skill, and although I'm not an unfeeling robot, I'm probably on the spectrum, and I struggle with always knowing how best to connect with people on a level where they see I understand them. In fact, I'd say I'm actually quite bad at this, and in the case of my wife that I've been married to for over 22 years, and have 4 kids with, I always thought we had a great marriage until one day 5 months ago she told me that she felt miserable and alone for the last 22 years, so what the hell do I know?

I too have read online that this is a very common challenge for men in general. I think "walk away wife syndrome" sums it up really well. But dear god do I wish there was a way to meet my wife halfway on this (there's not!) because I feel like (and I know this doesn't matter or change the reality) that this is actually a problem with both men and women and not just men, that women (or to be non-gender specific, the person that doesn't feel seen) should on some level be trying to make themselves seen less and approaching the world differently, without waiting for the validation of their signals.

@Superesee
Again, your examples are just spot on!

What you're really describing is something in Information Technology Networking called the Three-way Handshake. It's used by a network protocol found just about everywhere on the internet, and it works something like this: Your computer sends a request out to visit a website like SI, and that request is received by another computer on the internet. That other computer sends back a signal to your computer that basically says "Hey, I got your message". When your computer receives that message, it sends another message back to the other computer that says "Hey, I got your message that you got my message!" And now both computers know that you've been seen.

The problem that I have with my WW, is that she's HORRIBLE at sending me the response message that she knows she's been seen. It's like she waited 22 fucking years to tell me that she's never gotten any of my messages. God, it just pisses me right off thinking about it in this moment. I didn't spend all 22 years not communicating back to her.

Anyway, thank you again to the OP and to those that followed up. I wish I could go back in time and use this knowledge.

One more thing. @justsendit

I really struggle with my WW's conversations where she doesn't want me to fix anything and just wants me to say "I feel your pain" or whatever.

I used to work a sales job where the formula for success was to listen to the person's gripes about the product we were selling, to repeat back to them everything they said, and then transition to a solution that essentially "re-sold" the same product to them at a discounted price. I was the best at it, I set all kinds of sales records, got promoted, had my own team of people, and we set all kinds of team sales records. So, I'm familiar with this approach and I should be able to do this.

BUT, is this an engaging way to spend my time? I mean, WTF do people get from this? It's so formulaic and predictable. It actually seems like you could easily just go on auto-pilot waiting for your WW to pause just so you could paraphrase back a portion of what she said, add something like "yeah, that must be hard" and then sit back and let her ramble on about the same shit for another hour.

Don't get me wrong, I want my WW to see me as a safe person that she wants to confide in and trust to listen to her. I care about her feelings and want to hear about her day. But like, why does she (and others) need to be upsold on their own feelings? I'm hear listening, I'm trying to be a good partner, me trying to fix the problem is objectively better than just sitting around saying "oh yeah, that really sucks". But ok, we just want to be stuck in our problems while being "seen". Got it.

This is frustrating as hell. I'm trying so hard with my WW, I'm listening, I'm not trying to fix her problems. It still doesn't seem to matter. And you know what's really the worst part of it? I listen and try to validate her feelings like all day, and she doesn't ask about my day or do the same for me (because now I'm paying attention to this crap), and I just let it roll off me because again, I don't have to be "seen". It's ok that she doesn't really care about my work or my day, I don't need that level of validation. But the moment she's done talking about her work, it's like we have nothing left to talk about because she just turns off, and it's obvious that she doesn't care about anything I have to say about anything.

Ya know who's really going to be great at seeing my WW? The next guy she's with after our divorce. And sure, maybe she'll stay with him for another 22 years before she says "you're just like my ex-husband, he never saw me either." Or maybe, just maybe, it won't take that long before she realizes that "being seen" takes two people, just not one.

Apologies, not a direct answer to your question but had the need to tell you this

This post resonates deeply with my own frustrations regarding the common approach to therapy. While I acknowledge the proven efficacy of therapeutic interventions and the undeniable positive impact it has had on countless lives, I believe it's crucial to address the potential pitfalls that often arise.

One significant concern is the tendency towards excessive psychoanalysis. The assumption that every behavior stems from a deep-seated, hidden trauma or unmet need can be overly simplistic and, at times, dismissive of individual agency. For instance, the notion that infidelity is invariably a product of a dysfunctional dynamic created by the betrayed partner is a problematic generalization. While relationship dynamics certainly play a role, attributing blame in such a way overlooks the possibility of individual moral choices and personal responsibility.

To illustrate, consider the common question posed to a betrayed partner: 'Were you perfectly happy in every aspect of your marriage?' The implication is that any perceived deficiency on the part of the betrayed somehow justifies or explains the infidelity. However, this logic is flawed. Marital imperfections are universal; no relationship is without its challenges. Yet, the vast majority of individuals, despite these imperfections, do not resort to infidelity. This highlights that the choice to cheat is ultimately a personal one, influenced by a complex interplay of factors, including individual character, values, and decision-making.

Regardless of any perceived deficiencies in emotional intelligence, infidelity is a separate and distinct issue. There's a clear and ethical process for addressing relationship problems that avoids betrayal:

* Open Communication: The first step is to openly discuss the issue with your partner.

* Collaborative Effort: Work together to find solutions and address the problem.

* Compatibility Assessment: If collaborative efforts fail, consider the possibility of incompatibility and discuss it openly.

* Dissolution (if necessary): If, after a reasonable period and consistent effort, no improvement occurs, separation or divorce becomes a responsible option.

This roadmap illustrates how individuals with integrity navigate relationship challenges without resorting to infidelity. It's about respecting your partner and the commitment you've made, even when facing difficulties. Anyone who's chooses not to engage in the above process, is simply a bad person acting within their values at that given time.

I'm not saying quit therapy or to not work on your issues but take it with a grain of salt.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 11:07 AM, Saturday, March 8th]

I think the therapist makes a valid point.

In my experience my H stopped communicating with me. I would hear him in the phone telling a friend a very funny story. However I would think to myself "wish he shared that with me". Did I say anything to him? No. Why? At the time it sounded rather petty.

However he tried to say he cheated on me because "we were disconnected". Yet HE was the one with the communication issues.

At dday2 he tried to blame me for his affair. I exploded with my rage and anger over the years how HE didn’t talk to me. So he could not blame me. I was not disconnected. He was.

But I think often that is how affairs begin. Maybe for the first time in a long time people feel seen and heard. Someone is interested and listening.

I always enjoy having a good conversation with someone. But I can say I’ve had plenty of opportunities to cheat (no thank you b/c I’m not someone’s side chick lol) but honestly it’s not an excuse or justification to use to cheat.

You have a conversation (or try) to discuss issue. If nothing changes you need to decide if this issue is big enough to lead to a D.

I think that as humans we get comfortable and don’t make our spouse or partner feel as though they are the most important thing / person. But it is hard to do that when balancing life - kids, careers, home, aging parents, emergencies, illness - but we do our best.

@The1stwife

But I think often that is how affairs begin. Maybe for the first time in a long time people feel seen and heard. Someone is interested and listening.

Agreed. But this is what pains me the most. I've been married for 22 years, I know all her stories already. I know her feelings already. I can't possibly be expected to compete with new guy off the street that doesn't know anything about her and is willing to just sit there endlessly in an effort to get down her pants.

Like, 22 years of marriage is supposed to be worth so much more than "being seen and heard" by rando jerk face at the office!

It's just infuriating that people generally need this level of validation. It feels like if I were a great con man I would be a better husband to my wife than if I was just sincerely in love with her (which I am) but couldn't communicate that in a way that she values because she's asking for something that frankly isn't entirely reasonable from someone that knows her as well as I do.

I don't expect her to do that for me either. I just fundamentally don't get it. I'm still trying like crazy, but jesus.

I got the same thing from my WW .Except she said not appreciated.Which to this day I still don’t understand what she even means. I did all the house chores got our daughter up and ready for school every morning made her breakfast and packed her lunch.Would cook dinners and even do the clean up afterwards.We spent all our times together and never argued over anything that much. I was never selfish about anything for myself and always thought of my family first.Even letting her choose where we would vacation or go to dinner at.We were together for 37 years and married 25 so pretty much 3/4 of our lives. I always told her how nice she looked or said her hair cut was nice,she was definitely about vaniity .She says now that there was something missing with us that I wasn’t exciting and knew what to expect from me.And that’s what led her to have a affair,that’s 2 years ago next Saturday when all this happened and she’s living with AP and left me and our daughter,presently going through a divorce.

Being seen isn't just a skill.

You can only say "Wow, that sounds really hard." A few times before it's the same as "okay".

Mirroring is good too, but it's still a case where it can become obvious you a using a technique.

I'm not saying "don't try" but if you natural ways of emotionally connecting are too distant that can be an incompatibility for someone seeking a partner that is generally more naturally empathetic.

In a normal healthy relationship i imagine that feeling seen, appreciated, close and intimate (in a non physical sense) is a on a pendulum. The understanding that both parties would try, to their best abilities, to work through those times .

That said all of us are here because of infidelity. Infidels by and large have a difficult relationship with the truth. Lying is meant to subvert all of these things. In the Glass vernacular it is wall building. Intentionally doing the exact opposite of being seen, appreciated, close or intimate.

Hello-

I have used this phrase often about my preA-marriage.

I feel a little conflicted about this advice you have been given. I think I understand how it’s different than blaming you. I do think that if the therapist is seeing something in you that might improve your ability to connect more deeply and it helps you in your relationships from that work then that is always a worthy endeavor. I think you will find more meaning for you in pursuing that knowledge.

So, real talk.(and I will assume anyone here knows I do not blame my husband for my affair- I am just going to talk about our pre-affair marriage) because I feel if I had any true complaints about our marriage it would be the not being seen thing.

And I am just going to brain dump here of examples. It’s sort of like feeling you have this supporting role but you are never the main character?

As a wife and mother I wanted to create as much magic for my family as I could. Let’s take Christmas for an example. I would work for months picking out the perfect gifts, wrapping, meal planning, etc. Receiving gifts and things like that are low on my love language. It comes in last place. But early in our relationship he would fill my stocking or surprise me with something meaningful to me. Over the years that stopped and he stopped writing me cards and things like that. If I got something it was practical and not very personal. I think what I am trying to say here is when he did those things earlier in our relationship those things made me feel known- that he noticed things I liked or wanted without me making a list. Not a huge issue on its own, just one smof hundreds of micro abrasions that made me feel a little more invisible as they were added up. It didn’t have to be gifts, it was the lack of non-generic romantic bids.

I never had the sort of breaks to do things the way he did. He had hobbies, and started businesses, and my role it seemed was to make everything work to allow that to happen. It would be late at night and I would be cleaning the kitchen for the next day after I had worked all day, done baths, story time, homework, dinner, and whatever - I had this constant mental load. Failure to keep on top of it only meant overwhelm later. And he would come in the kitchen kiss me goodnight and ask me if I was coming to bed soon? And I would be like "I certainly hope so because I am exhausted". He would just say "don’t be too long" and go off to bed.

It would have felt so nice for him to just quietly start helping me finish up. It sounds very small, and I would always know it was small but it would have made a huge difference to me if he showed he cared I was tired and tried to carry those every day burdens with me instead of me being the default person for everything. It would have felt like a partnership rather than servitude. I served daily. He served sometimes when he thought about it or when maybe he wanted sex. Well that’s not entirely fair, he did things for us and I could have appreciated that more too. I

of course regardless, I would go upstairs and he would want to have sex. He knew I was exhausted, did nothing to help me, and now wants me to show up ready to go. God forbid I tell him no, because then I got the extra gift of him now being irritated with me.

That boils down to I would have liked it if sometimes he just noticed I needed time off or time to relax, or noticed something that I wanted to have or do that was just about me and who I am. It was as if somewhere in those child rearing years that I slowly lost my feelings of identity and he never noticed it.

In the 18 months leading up to my affair he wanted me to help him with a lot of administrative tasks with a business he was starting. And to his credit he did tell me to hire a cleaner to come to the house once a week to help offset the time. But our last child was in their senior year at school. Last year at home with us. I wasn’t a stay at home mom I was already a CEO during the day with all those pressures too. I became a robot. He didn’t ever seem to notice or care. When I would get overly exhausted I would cry and tell him I felt like I was failing in every way in my life, and he would say things like l why don’t you go upstairs and go to sleep? Or ask me if I was getting my period soon. Or maybe tell me if I keep going it will pay off for us. I ended up with sexual dysfunction towards the end of that, like some sort of female impotence. It didn’t seem like he noticed that either.

But mostly it was the accumulation of a lot of small things that said to me "I am not seeing where you are right now" none of it was big when you look at it on its own.

My husband told me I was pretty, thanked me for making dinner, told me he loved me, did most things I asked, never raised his voice, we rarely fought. He occasionally sent flowers or brought dinner home. But notice most of these things are just words. They stopped weighing as much because his actions told me a different story.

What it’s like now- earlier this week he noticed I was cleaning some of my gardening beds when he got home, which is one of my hobbies I enjoy. And he went and got the trash bags and started helping me get rid of the piles that accumulated. And as we were talking I told him for the vegetables this year I would like to get a couple raised beds. We talked a little more about where they would go and so forth and then went on. It’s early in the season so I wasn’t thinking immediate action, I was just talking. Yesterday he called me and asked me about the size and all that because he had gone already to get gravel and some supplies. I was floored he did that, and he said "you don’t seem to get excited over many things and you love this so I want to help you get it all set up so you can enjoy it for the next six months"

Those are actions. Those are "I see you love this let me help you make this happen".

If he sees me working in the kitchen late he comes and we do it side by side and talk. He always asks about my day or notices if I am quieter than usual. He now says he used to think I wanted him to read my mind but now he sees I just wanted him to notice me in a deeper way.

Also he knows me now as a person. He can predict certain things or tease me about my idiosyncrasies. When we have sex he takes his time, allowing me to relax and get into my body after a mentally strenuous day. He does things I like and not just what he thinks women like. Sometimes he will just hold me without it being about sex. He will give me more non sexual affection through the day rather than making it seem like it’s something he does when he wants to get laid.

It’s not the words it’s the actions. The investment. It’s showing me I am his romantic partner and it’s more than just remembering girls like compliments or being thanked. He is aware of my daily little experiences. He makes what is important to me important to him. It’s at least occasionally but consistently remember to do the stuff he did to woo me into marrying him in the first place. And I do the same too. It’s consideration and empathy, connection.

This was harder in the child rearing years and you all have more kids than we did. But that connection with your souse had to have nurturing, time has to be made. I hope this helps.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:24 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

It’s very natural not to see anymore. To just ‘know’ instead.

When you first came to where you live, what did you see? Everything? Hills and houses, routes and neighborhoods. It was all different, and it made you feel a little different too.

After your thousandths drive through the area, what did you really see on that trip? Probably very little. You may well have driven the whole way with almost no awareness of the drive.

The first time you saw your wife, what did you see? Everything? All fresh to you, and new.

How do you think your gaze made her feel? How she filled your awareness, you know it had an effect. She was seen.

How do you see her now? How much is seeing, and how much is knowing? Does it have the same effect on her?

Have you ever tried to un-know her? To drop all of the years of "knowing" that you have built up, and see her truly fresh? Like you’ve never seen her before? Let her fill your awareness?

Try it. It takes real practice to turn off the autopilot and really see somebody, anybody. It is a super valuable skill.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 2:53 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

I will add that the need to be seen, to be validated and have your existence affirmed, is its own problem.

I have some reservations answering your question, because like others have said, "I’m not seen" can be a meaningless buzz phrase or a way of trying to excuse bad behavior. I also feel like some people who talk about feeling "seen" in their affair are somehow expecting that a real, long-term relationship should constantly give them the cheap thrill that rapt attention from their affair partner gives them.

But if your therapist is good and you feel like this is an issue you’d benefit from working on in your marriage, I have some feedback on your original post. This comes out of my experiences and personality, so it might not be applicable, so take anything useful and ignore the rest.

The appreciative comments and gestures you’re doing are great, but I think there are a couple of practical ways to go deeper and make her feel more seen. One is to ask questions about how she’s doing and what she’s thinking, and be willing to enter into real conversation about it. Showing genuine interest in someone’s day (or whatever aspect of their life) helps them feel seen.

Another thing is to look at your balance of labor. I think a LOT of women are in HO’s situation. Statistics show that generally, women shoulder far more of the childcare and household labor than men, even when both partners are working full time. Having someone appreciate what you do and say thank you is awesome, but if one person is shouldering a heavier load, forging a more equitable balance of labor can go farther toward making a person feel seen than watching them run themselves ragged and then saying thank you.

Another thing that can make a person feel seen is to take an active interest in their interests, even if it’s a little bit of a stretch for you. One of the biggest changes my husband has made post-affair that has helped me heal and made me feel good about our relationship is participating more in my interests. At first I didn’t know what to do with the fact that he was helping me garden or joining me on my evening walk. Or that he started keeping my colleagues straight or asking about particular kids I teach who I worry about or who are challenging to manage or who I have a special bond with. But over time it has become a norm, and it makes me feel seen, even if I never thought to phrase it that way.

It needs to be a two way street though. I haven’t always "seen" my husband well either, or been open enough to sharing his interests and pursuits, or been attentive enough about his work life. We both had and have room in this area for growth. And it can feel awkward to try new things decades into a long-term relationship, and both sides have to recognize that sometimes things are busy or hard or blah, and we can’t always walk around in some lovey dovey validation high.

On an unrelated note, thinking about being seen and forging stronger emotional connection in my marriage has helped me relate better to my children, too, and build deeper connections with them.

At the end of the day, though, you need to ask your wife what she means about being seen, and how she thinks the two of you can make progress in this area.

[This message edited by Grieving at 4:21 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

At the end of the day, though, you need to ask your wife what she means about being seen, and how she thinks the two of you can make progress in this area.

Repeating because IMO it bears repeating for all of us.

*****

Lots of wisdom in the posts above. Lots. Thanks, HINHF.

I think part of our problem is that we follow Hillel and Jesus (I think). Hillel said, 'That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow.' The golden rule is, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'

But what we really need to do to our loved ones is 'Do to others what they want you to do to them.'

I knew my W liked surprise gifts. For several years I walked past a flower shop between the train I took and home. I usually bought flowers on Fridays. W was very receptive, but I didn't understand, because the flowers took so little effort on my part.

It wasn't until after d-day that I learned how much my W got from my washing dishes - even though I did dishes only when I wanted to do them.

I wish I had paid more attention to the ROI. If I had, I'd have exerted myself a bit more. W would have been happier. I doubt it would have stopped the A, but I like and liked to see her happy. The ROI just didn't register with me.

We should have talked more....

*****

I want to emphasize a point made above (I'm sorry I can't find the reference - the person who made it deserves props): a person needs to be able to receive the love they receive - and seeing is loving. Unless their self-love is at a certain minimal level, it's as if they weren't seen at all.

I understand that the love language stuff hasn't stood up to scientific testing, but it sure makes sense to me. My W thought I loved her for the 'acts of service' she did. Those acts were beside the point for me, though. I loved her for who she was and took her acts of service after our son moved out as one of her imperfections. What I really like about her are her ways of looking at life that would never occur to me, and more. I never wanted a servant....

*****

I gave my W plenty of love, but it didn't reach her. She gave me plenty of love, and it did reach me, so I thought mine reached her. That's heartbreaking, too.

We would have been better off if I had loved her in ways she wanted to be loved.

Again, I don't think think that would have prevented her A, but we would have been happier if one of us had realized that's what we needed to do.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:13 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

Oh man, I have so many thoughts about this:

First, sorry about your IC your put responsibility on you for your wife's betrayal. I can still remember the moment an MC did that to me and it was triggering as all fuck. It's maddening that professionals do that.

I struggle with the language that you describe with this new IC. I understand they are trying to walk a line, but to my ears she is past it. To me it's like saying to any person that makes less than the mean income in the country that it's understandable that their spouse was stealing and if you want that to stop in your next relationship you should earn more. It sounds sort of plausible, but it falls apart if you really dwell on it.

To "being seen"

From a purely theoretical perspective, I hear this and think of Gottman's Love Map, which is his first principle in Making Marriage Work. It's understanding your partner's inner world, which seems necessary for intimacy. If this isn't present, there are a number of possible reasons, with the discussions of the three way handshake above covering well.

My stbxw used this idea. Her catch phrase was "to know and be known". Sounded great. The fundamental rot in the foundation was that she was actively hiding and/or doesn't even know who she is. I think that is what professionals miss when they say things like this to a betrayed partner. I think they are trying to find some way to even things out. But to realize that in some cases the person who has acted so atrociously in having in affair ALSO has the fault of sabotaging the entirety of the relationship, it just seems like it's too much to pile on them. But if that is true, then it just means burdening the betrayed.

To her very mild credit, during our R attempt, my wife seemed to try to open up a few times. They inevitably resulted in what she referred to as a "vulnerability hangover". She would show just a glimpse of something and by the next day regret it and start lashing out at me about how untrustworthy I was. One time we were on a walk together and she literally ran away from me after she shared, I actively listened well, and then I attempted to share. Full on Julia Roberts "Run Away Bride", just sprinted down the path home. It was so fucked up. You can't convince me that any amount of active listening or chore-play or anything I could do was going to fix or even meaningfully influence that.

Brother, your wife does not strike me as an emotionally or psycologically healthy person, based off your descriptions. From where I am in the journey, I've tried to piece as much together as I can and learn from this experience. But I've also decided that trying to make everything make sense with the unhealthy person that I've been with for 20 years is never going to happen and I just need to move on. I'm going to have to watch in future relationships for what dynamics arise, and if there are similar patterns from my marriage I will take very seriously the possibility that they are coming from me. Yes, identify things you want to grow in and improve. But I just caution you in using your marriage relationship as a measuring stick in any of it. I know I'm not perfect, and I contributed problems. But it's impossible to really understand when I've been deceived for 20 years.