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The mind fuck aspect is real, Ink Hulk, and I do believe that good people tied to hella dysfunctional people sometimes tie themselves in unproductive knots trying to make sense of things as they look at themselves and their partner.

But that's also why I think "seeing" needs to take place in the present, not in the form of endless circlings over the past. I don’t actually see my husband’s affair as a temporary lapse, and I still feel mind fucked at times when I try to understand the past. I kind of think him lying to me and gaslighting me so much during his affair and after partial DDay1 will always have me feeling at least a little mind fucked about the past. These days I try to really look at myself in the present, and really see him in the present. I’ve learned a lot that way. For us, it’s helped the relationship, but I also think it could give me clarity if I needed to leave.

[This message edited by Grieving at 11:42 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

WBFA,

I was and still am a good husband, and for sure I didn’t deserve everything that happened. However it did, and so to me the best way I can get through it is to at least learn something from this experience. This isn’t so much about the affair, but me in relationships. I am an emotionally detached man. I grew up with it, my dad was the definition of stoicism. I did over two decades in the Army and had to make some hard decisions. I’d go on a mission and come back with less people than we went out with, and had to go back out the next day. So, yeah I am very much detached and while I am loving and supportive, easy going and don’t let little things bother me, I think it’s fair to say I can also be closed off.

I don’t think taking time to fix my own shit is a bad thing, otherwise how can I change? How can anyone?

The affair happened, I can use it to make myself better instead of digging my heels in and placing my head in the sand, insisting I don’t need to change.

Grieving and Ink,

I agree with both of your points. I am trying to see or determine if my marriage has always had the dysfunction like how you said Ink, or if it’s something that happened over time.

Don’t be too hard on yourself, HINHF. I answered based on my own experiences, but I acknowledge that the voices warning you that some people will suck you dry and blame you for their own destructive choices may have a point.

You’re not wrong, nor Ink or anyone really. The mindfuck of the affair is horrible. Gaslighting gets thrown out a lot inappropriately but damn, during the A it was deep and real.
But it does tie a little bit into being seen. How can you be seen or see your spouse when you’re deceptive? I mean you can’t. It’s a facade.

WW did tell me that I put to much on and that she felt she wasn’t needed because I did too much? Sometimes feels like I can’t win.

I literally laughed out loud when I read this from the sheer irony of it. Good God, truly, we just can’t win.

Maybe I’ll just encourage you to not let you mind swirl as you think about your part. If you can trace things to before you even knew your wife, seems like great candidates to work on. Just remember that you’ve been lied to and that is incredibly insidious.

Grieving, I fully respect your positions here and am happy for your good outcome. And if we can agree that "seeing" in the present can cover the possibility of truly seeing a dysfunctional person’s true nature, as opposed to the intimacy building "seeing" that has been mostly assumed, then I think we fully agree.

The affair happened, I can use it to make myself better instead of digging my heels in and placing my head in the sand, insisting I don’t need to change.

This statement worries me. Bear with me, as this isn't my area of expertise, but my concern is that this approach rewards harmful behavior.

It creates a deeply damaging scenario where the cheating partner is left with the outcome of: 'Remember when I cheated? It was worth it. I endured some arguments and upset, but ultimately, the relationship improved exactly in line with what I wanted'

This seems fundamentally counterintuitive to how human relationships work. When a child screams for a toy, you don't reward that behaviour by giving them a toy.

However, I'm conflicted in the above view because I strongly believe in personal growth and self-improvement. Individuals should strive to use traumatic experiences as catalysts for positive change.

Doc,

You’re taking my statement in the context of R maybe and this is your concern? I don’t know if I am going to R or not. I’m still married, but after dday3 the r ship sunk pretty deep.

My point of view is, this awful unfair thing happened, but I am not going to stay its victim. If I can make something good out of all this bad, then I have taken my agency back.

My marriage is on shakey terms at best, if my WW states something about how beneficial the A was, the little chance left is def gone

My apologies. With your clarification, I wholeheartedly agree. If you're using this experience for personal growth, particularly to become a better partner in future relationships, then I believe it's worthwhile. My initial concern stemmed from the impression that it might be rewarding negative behavior, in which case my original point would have stood.

HellIsNotHalfFull post #42

I was and still am a good husband, and for sure I didn’t deserve everything that happened. However it did, and so to me the best way I can get through it is to at least learn something from this experience. This isn’t so much about the affair, but me in relationships. I am an emotionally detached man. I grew up with it, my dad was the definition of stoicism. I did over two decades in the Army and had to make some hard decisions. I’d go on a mission and come back with less people than we went out with, and had to go back out the next day. So, yeah I am very much detached and while I am loving and supportive, easy going and don’t let little things bother me, I think it’s fair to say I can also be closed off.

test

I don’t think taking time to fix my own shit is a bad thing, otherwise how can I change? How can anyone?

The affair happened, I can use it to make myself better instead of digging my heels in and placing my head in the sand, insisting I don’t need to change.

Yes indeed and I get it man. In saying introspection is bad I may have exaggerated and gone off on a bit of a rant as I am prone to do on here Self-improvement and introspection are great things indeed, and so is calm under pressure. My concern for you is that you may end up asking yourself questions that do not serve you. 'How can I be better period, and this includes better for my next relationship' is I think a great question, 'what could I have done so that my WW wouldn't have cheated' is a very bad question I think, and questions adjacent to that latter one I think we need to be careful asking.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:29 PM, Monday, March 10th]

WBFA,

I’m definitely not asking the question under the direction of if I could have prevented the A. I firmly believe it would have happened no matter what.

I am asking because I genuinely don’t know what it means to be seen in a relationship. I have never thought that way before, but it’s definitely something a lot of relationships go through as proven by this thread alone.

For a time I consumed content from a group called The Powerful Man and I believed I learned some valuable things from them. One of them states this: "Women need to be seen, heard, and desired."

The "seen" part I understood as truly paying attention to what they do, what their struggles are, how hard they work, and who they are as a person. Following Christmas I told my wife I saw how hard she worked for the family, all the little things she did for others when she thought nobody was watching, but I saw them. I thanked her for her hard work and shared how much it meant to me that she does so much for our family, and how it made such a meaningful difference to our season together. Told her I loved that about her and how much I appreciated her dedication & love. She hugged me hard and thanked me.

If not "seen", they can feel "invisible", where they conclude nobody notices how hard they work, and over time, can breed resentment. Being "seen" is more substantive than a quick "thanks for dinner" when she cooks.

As always, this has zero to do with excusing infidelity, and everything to do with being a wise & loving husband.

I could do. I read all of the comments, and it’s interesting from the BWs side, I did all of those things. I’d help WW with chores, id pick her slack when she had bad days, I even told her repeatedly how much i appreciated all of the behind the scenes work she took care of that I never knew about. I tried to get her really personal gifts of things I knew she would love, like her favorite jewelry.(which of course she wore repeatedly when sewing AP just can’t have anything special can we), I made plans to take kids out of the house so she could have a day to herself. WW did tell me that I put to much on and that she felt she wasn’t needed because I did too much? Sometimes feels like I can’t win.

Okay here is where you change gears on me. You keep saying you know that she would have cheated anyway but this sounds very opposite.

This reads like you think that because you did those things she will feel seen. You have no control over that anymore than you did over her choice to have an affair. This IS a form of blaming yourself.

What I would recommend you get clarity on is this- I interpreted your initial post as IC sees some tendencies in you that demonstrates to them that you have some work to do on your EI. You seem to agree. I would buy that, It’s their job to help people identify attitudes and issues that might be standing in our way of leading a more peaceful life.

Just keep in mind over time they see enough patterns they begin to lump them together. This means right now what they are saying is more of a hypothesis of what you should explore. A starting point that could still be potentially ruled out, so it’s important for you to not latch onto it like it’s a diagnosis.

Your IC’s theory is "men Like you are often cheated on". This means to me they believe someone with a less developed EI is more likely to choose a partner who cheats. It does make sense because one aspect of someone’s EI is how much they can recognize in another.

This is why I think Grieving’s posts are so dead on- when she talks about seeing her husband more clearly she is talking about getting more objective- losing some of the illusions she had about him that were likely more ruled by her emotions.

I never read you like you are flat or detached towards your wife at any point, I have read that she brings you a lot of chaotic feelings and pain. The IC may only see you have some trouble managing your emotions and mislabeling you based on that. If you think about it, they see lots of people who have been cheated on, they see them not able to manage their emotions well and they may have formed a bad hypothesis that low EI people get cheated on. When in reality the cheating is what is bringing on that symptom. And on the other hand they can be entirely right. So I am just encouraging you to stay open minded because the process may twist and turn as you do more work together.

Try and be mindful you could still looking for a way that you are able to control risk (if I do this or that it will protect me from being cheated on in the future) . It’s a fallible road to go down when you think you have any control over how someone reacts to what you do or don’t do.

It is hard when you do IC to know how to expand and grow. When I started I was like you - goal oriented- how can I get from here to there? That’s too overwhelming and puts a lot of pressure on yourself. All the work is to become more self aware, and as that slowly unfolds you will find it’s more of a sorting. There are many things you will learn you like about yourself and the things you struggle with will bring new perceptions and epiphanies over time. All the work requires is for you to pay more attention to your thoughts and feelings and challenging whether or not they are true, helpful, or even healthy. That’s why I highlighted this passage you wrote, because your logic is saying many of the right things but this is seeping in. This is a thought process you need to challenge.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:04 PM, Sunday, March 9th]

I think the posts by HoP and grieving are worth rereading.

Introspection is about oneself, not about others. It's about listening to one's self-talk and deciding to keep a message, to delete it, or to change it. It's about asking oneself if one can perceive filters that distort one's overall perceptions - and decide to keep, change, or remove any such filters.

In a good relationship, introspection might be about satisfaction/contentment. In a poor one, it might be about figuring out what one needs to do to treat oneself better in the future or about what one wants (stay/go) or about one's requirements for staying.

I guess introspection is, in my view, about monitoring one's thoughts and feelings and deciding if one wants to change something about oneself.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:11 PM, Sunday, March 9th]

But I am curious, what does it mean to be seen in a relationship?

I’m late to the thread, and I haven’t read through it, but this particular take from an MC bothers me.

Nothing you did caused your wife to cheat.

Nothing.

Of course, every relationship has pains, strains, distance and difficulties that can make the relationship more "vulnerable."

And yet, not every person chooses (CHOOSES) to cheat as a response.

Cheating is a bad coping mechanism with immense collateral damage. That’s what the focus of the MC should be.

Instead, "not being seen" is a line, not a reason. It’s a rationalization, not a reason.

Of course, you were likely distant, but your wife knew your personality going into the relationship. If she felt unseen — then she asks to be seen, or has an MC sit down with both of you or a myriad of other choices, instead of bringing in a stranger to the M in order to feel seen!

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 5:19 PM, Sunday, March 9th]

Every interaction between two humans involves a relationship. You and your spouse, you and the toll collector, you and a waiter, your mom, a job applicant, etc.

Here’s an example of not being seen. You show up to an interview for a job, you have an accent, and you can watch the filters pop up and the prejudices activate. The interviewer pulls in 40 years of experience and a few hundred years of culture, and sees you through that lens.

Here’s another example. You sit down to talk with your wife, and you see the 20 years of marriage and experiences activate the filters while she gives you 50%of her attention, the other 50% immediately thinking "how does what he is telling me impact me?"

An example of being seen…you meet with your therapist, and for that hour it is clear that you have their full attention. They are attuned to your words, your tone, your body language. They aren’t looking at their phone. They may not be saying anything at all. They are just seeing you…at Xxx dollars per hour.

Another example of being seen…you are at a social function, talking with your friends, and from across the room you see your wife watching you and maybe smiling a little bit. It you are a kid in a school play, and you see mom and dad in the audience, rapt.

How does it make you feel, to be seen? Why?

I guess introspection is, in my view, about monitoring one's thoughts and feelings and deciding if one wants to change something about oneself.

I’m certainly not saying that personal growth is bad or that introspection is wrong. My point is that you can only work with the memories you have, the experiences you have had. If those are all tangled up for decades with someone that you don’t know how much they were deceiving you, the data is corrupted.

The human mind finds patterns, even when there are no patterns in reality. Stock brokers convince themselves they can beat the market. Gamblers convince themselves they are "due". I personally like hikingout’s guess that therapists convince themselves of patterns based off seeing patients that confuse cause and effect.

If we go off and contemplate a situation, our minds will come up with something. If it’s chewing on unreliable data, it will come up with erroneous conclusions. So the core of my recommendation to hell is to be careful about the process. Introspection is not a guarantee of finding indisputable truth, even about yourself. And the premise from the IC makes me wary for him.

I don’t see introspection about the past really. You can not be mindful about something that already happened. It’s self discovery in the present.

What am I thinking and how is it effecting my behaviors and emotions. Is it true? Helpful? Healthy? What am I feeling and why am I feeling it? The only thing that is helpful about the past is if you are trying to recognize if it’s a pattern and where did that start? Knowing the origins of a pattern is only important in telling yourself that you adopted that way of thinking because of some way of coping in the past and it’s not serving you. It’s a way of feeling safe in the idea of making a change.

Its only about your own thoughts and behaviors. It’s mindfulness. Not analyzing coulda shoulds wouldas. It might unlock how you have caused issues in relationships- but it’s not just about romantic relationships. It’s all relationships. Because whatever it is holding you back is happening across the board.

As grieving mentioned, and it resonates with me, that it improved Her relationship with her kids and others. Same with me. I can look at how I interact now with close friends and family and see the same things changed with them as my husband (in general). This is about moving forward not backwards.

And it’s exactly how you can start seeing your spouse objectively. Because you realize all you is tell yourself narratives that may or may not be true. Instead you start thinking what do I want in my life? Who do I want to be? What is holding me back? What can I practice doing differently? When you start looking at yourself what you see about your situations will change.

Infidelity often causes a lot of rumination which is normal, but being mindful is taking you out of the rumination to witness the present. I think hell maybe still has that to come into focus more because he is searching the past to figure out about what caused the issue. However paying attention to thoughts and challenging them in in the present will really answer the question better.

Edited to add: when I say searching for the past to see what caused the issue I am not talking about the marriage. He didn’t cause infidelity. I am talking about when you discover an issue in yourself- identifying what caused that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:07 PM, Monday, March 10th]

I don’t see introspection about the past really.

Yeah ... except that sometimes introspection processes memories and looks at what those memories are, how accurate they are, and are the lessons one think one learned still the lessons one wants to get from those memories.

Even then, the output of the introspection is about now, not the past. It is also ablout how one sees oneself going forward, so it has impact on the future, but introspection is about now.

I agree Sissoon.

But good introspection always starts in the present. When you see your motivations, or understand your thoughts lie to you you will see it comes up that way over and over. IThen you begin to apply known patterns to things like memories.

For example, when I was a newer ws I would realize I had a tendency not to be forthcoming. And as I started seeing it I started questioning it. Why am I holding back? And the answer was I didn’t want to lose him. Then, I would make myself be forthcoming. Over time I could see rewards for it. "When I am forthcoming and vulnerable, he relates to me better" "when I am forthcoming I get more of the things I want" and so forth.

After you master your present you may go back and see "wait a minute I have never been particularly forthcoming or vulnerable". "Wait a minute, this is holding me back with my kids or in my friendships too"

You have to be in the present more to start seeing the pattern. Then you start applying what you learned and then suddenly these epiphanies come of "I can see I have always had a fear of abandonment, it wasn’t just my present circumstances creating that, I have been This way as long as I remember and it created dysfunction because I didn’t think I would be loved if I showed this side of me."

To me the memories are only helpful once you have truly witnessed your thoughts and their impact on feelings and behavior. Once have truly found conviction you are getting in your own way, then you can see the hindsight you were always in your own way. And maybe it started here with this life event or that one. It’s about starting to feel safe with this new way of being that came from that minute to minute introspection. Feeling safe is a combo of seeing where this originated, that you no longer need it, and tha you are getting better results by not holding on to it.

So rather than hell looking at the lens of his marriage, he should focus on himself and how he reacts to things in the present. That is the reliable information we have. What’s happened in the past may provide clues or context, but discovery is about paying attention.

People alway comment that I am very introspective. I sort of laugh to myself because I was sleep Walking for most of my life. I have learned to pay attention to what I am doing right now and that’s what made a world of difference. When I convey my pre-a marriage like I did earlier in this post I presented a fallible perception because really that’s re-written history.

We can only know by witnessing and we can only witness when we pay attention.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:31 PM, Monday, March 10th]