SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A big part of "the work" for a BS is actually believing you are resilient and flexible. Not betraying your own principles. I've called the the loss of something integrity adjacent.

It's pretty nuanced, but so if you want to keep black and white framing, it isn't going to work.

Edit to add an older post on the subject:

I called it not losing my integrity, but something integrity adjacent.

It really is something that you need to come through to feel more settled. I highly recommend the book "How Can I Forgive You" by Janis Spring. This really helps shine a light on the inner working of forgiveness. On how to accept that your fWS has done the work of recompense and that your offer of forgiveness doesn't mean condoning the previous actions, and that it doesn't ever actually have to be a complete forgiveness. You are allowed to keep a bit of yourself upset.

What I have changed in my mindset is that I don't view myself as caving (though I did cave a lot, ha!), I am patient and resilient in the face of injury (but now with firm and clear boundaries to prevent further injury). I am not simply accepting, forgiving, and moving on. As you have pointed out, you feel empowered to leave if you want to leave. Instead you are taking the path of earned forgiveness. You are measuring what your WS has done and is doing against the injury they previously caused and accepting that they are making sufficient effort to make you feel safe again.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 4:18 AM, Friday, February 28th]

Dr,

When you talk about principals, to me reconciliation is more about weighing values. You may be a person who values loyalty/fidelity higher than the other things that you desire in a relationship.

What I believe happens more often is upon discovery of an affair the bs finds their values to be in competition with one another. As well as the numerous practical matters and fears that have to be sorted. (Financial stability, being able to keep the family unit whole, etc) Add to that regardless of your principles towards fidelity it doesn’t just immediately change the love you have for that person.

It’s all nuance rather than generalizations. A stay at home parent for example needs time to scramble to figure out joining the the workforce. Others lived through their own parents divorce and have great fears bout damaging their children or having to give up half their time with said children.

The time the bs needs to gain equilibrium often provides time for the ws to decide who they are going to be moving forward. Often it ends up the affair was the first bullet wound but it’s not fatal. It’s the ws’s lack of action, honesty, work, empathy, etc that often fires the second and fatal shot.

Even in my personal circumstances where a lot of practical issues like that didn’t exist, it still wasn’t an easy early decision for my husband who was devastated and in shock . We both made significant and similar salaries. Our kids were raised, and while it still meant severing the family unit, the impact would not have been as severe had we had young children at home. Our most complicated aspect was our real estate investments but I readily was going to sign that over in exchange for a greater share of the house equity - which was a very sweet deal for him.

Some was just the change itself - ending a 20+ year relationship and having to go back to the dating scene, our kids still factored in, he didn’t want to give up regular quality sex, he didn’t want to take care of the the practical matters that I took care of, and most of all he still loved me. We had a harmonious marriage for so many years it was hard for him to believe we couldn’t get back to that. In other words, when affairs happen in good marriages (which often they do), the idea of throwing that away was a big consideration.

For those of us who have reconciled it’s such a long intentional process in which the amount of communication and active seeking of inner truth is unfathomable. It’s truly a dark night of the soul that lasts for years. But despite the downsides of doing it which I fully admit exist, the process can create a marriage that is forged in fire.

When you think about the word reconciliation, even in the accounting world it’s a balancing of credits and debits. For those who end up with far more credits than debits, it’s a situation that makes sense and one can be at peace with. Even if you do not forgive the debits, the proper balance can still be achieved. I think some people try and force themselves to forgive and that is a repellant to that goal. If it happens I believe it will most often be part of a natural process.

(Side note: There are plenty of people who just stay married, and for those often you see there is an end goal such as knowing they will leave when the children are raised or when going back to school is complete or whatever. My comments are about people who truly feel happily reconciled)

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:33 PM, Friday, February 28th]

My 1st post was about forgiveness, Reading TiF's posts reminded me that there is (at least) another perspective - choosing R in the 1st place.

I'm a pro-numbers guy. I think probabilities, statistics, calculations, and numbers can be used to make a better life. So my decision to R was based on my calculations, and my decision to R was very much aimed at making the best of a bad situation for me, not for anyone else.

Here's an example. One of the phenomena that puzzled and bothered me during the 1st year after d-day was that my pain was often interrupted by memories of high points in our lives together. I went through more than a year of terrible pain, some of which was downright excruciating, but I also experienced a months-long high that followed learning W2b was as hooked on me, in her way, as I was on her, in mine.

I looked at our post-d-day behavior and decided the odds were in my favor that we/I could reach that sort of peak again if we R'ed, so I chose R.

Also, as I've written, on d-day my W seemed to be so obviously in pain, so obviously in the throes of some sort of illness, that the 'sickness and health' and 'better or worse' clauses kicked in. I had vowed to stick around, so I was prepped to stick around because a man of integrity keeps his word.

Note that I don't mention forgiveness. It was simply not part of my calculations. R does not require forgiveness.

IOW, I chose R out of selfishness. I can't claim any superiority - moral or otherwise - for my choice. I chose R because I wanted to. As far as I can see, I was as selfish in choosing R as my W was in conducting her A.

IOW, I chose R out of selfishness. I can't claim any superiority - moral or otherwise - for my choice. I chose R because I wanted to. As far as I can see, I was as selfish in choosing R as my W was in conducting her A.

Another point of symmetry in the wayward and the reconciling wayward. Though, not sure how widespread this view is.

Some was just the change itself - ending a 20+ year relationship and having to go back to the dating scene, our kids still factored in, he didn’t want to give up regular quality sex, he didn’t want to take care of the the practical matters that I took care of, and most of all he still loved me. We had a harmonious marriage for so many years it was hard for him to believe we couldn’t get back to that. In other words, when affairs happen in good marriages (which often they do), the idea of throwing that away was a big consideration.

I generally find highly principled people admirable. I don't even care what the principle is. It becomes a form of stubbornness in a way. Though you could argue it's irrational to be that way. Cut your nose of to spite your face types. For my money, a principle is only a principle when you stand to lose something yet you do (or don't do) it anyway.

If cheating is a deal breaker for you, let it break the deal. Weighing up pros and cons shouldn't come into it. You could stand to gain everything from staying but you should walk out such you align to your principles.

If I could swipe a million (insert your currency of choice here) the weighing of the pros and cons doesn't come into. It could chang my life. Path a comfortable life for my unborn children. I wouldn't do it. Because I'm not a thief. It's a principle.

I wish we had more reconcilers on this thread who were so against cheating that they would define it as a principle but reconciled anyway. On the basis of the responses in this thread it would seem that this stance is rarer that I had initially believed. Guess some people were more flexible with that mantra. Other people didn't think about it till it happened. Not sure how, it's in enough movies and TV shows.

I think the part that you are missing is for some it’s about conflicting principles, and having to make a decision based on which one they value more.

Keeping a family unit together is a high principle for many here. Being with their kids every day instead of every other week or just in weekends. Being able to support themselves and their said children, also a principle they want to uphold. Some make those decisions and stay in a loveless marriage. I suppose you do not find that stubbornness admirable?

What do you do when your principles are in conflict with each other?

Lose half the time with your kids. Being there maybe the highest principle. In fact we had a bh here who did just that, stayed with a terrible women because he wanted to see his kids every day. He was willing to lose his ability to go find love to be there with his children.

I think for every single person on this board they would tell you cheating is a dealbreaker. So what did they do? They made a different deal. They are not agreeing to future infidelity. They would tell you, there were a lot of reasons to stay but to do so I wanted to see my ws reform themselves to be monogamous, a better partner, etc. it can be a principle that you will not stay with someone who cheats. As far as I know, there is no one here who is reconciled with a spouse who still cheats.

In fact, it’s now a deep and agreed upon principle in our marriage that one lie and you are out. Recently I thought he had lied about something and I came here talking about getting a divorce. Turns out he didn’t lie. But mark my words if he does I am out. There is no room for it in this marriage that we negotiated new terms of.

You just may not have any principles that compete with fidelity and that is your own value system to decide for yourself.

But the decision to stay is a surprise to the bs because like sisson said they have their reasons as to why they are willing to work it through. The decision my husband had to stay was a surprise to me in fact. I was certain it meant immediate divorce.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:15 PM, Friday, February 28th]

You can't reconcile if you have a rigid principle that cheating is a deal breaker.

You can think you have that principle before hand, then change your mind. But if you actually have and keep that principle, how could you possibly stay with someone who betrayed you? You couldn't. Maybe that's your point. I'm not sure.

I need to learn how to quote posts, but everything hiking out said in her previous post resonated with me, both about making a new deal and how to reconcile competing values. My husband’s cheating incinerated our old deal, and five years out I’d say we’re still figuring out the new one.

I value standing up for myself and not letting people treat me poorly. I think that’s actually the value at the crux of cheating being a dealbreaker. But I also value forgiveness and grace and commitment for better or worse. On top of that I consider things like my kids’ wellbeing and my own happiness and future and my depth of investment in my relationship.

Being a principled person isn’t necessarily about hanging onto one single principle come hell or high water. (Emerson, i think, said something relevant about foolish consistency). Sometimes, like HO said, you’re balancing a lot of things. I am very principled about not stealing. I’ve never stolen a thing in my life, large or small. But I also value feeding my children, and if I were in a situation where my two choices were to steal food or have them starve, I’d probably steal.

I might be completely off base, but I feel like one of the things we’re dancing around here is the common conception that you’re a doormat and are debasing yourself if you stay in a relationship after cheating. I think men can sometimes feel that more strongly because of the way human societies work and how we construct masculinity. It’s telling that we have a far more derogatory word for men whose wives cheat than women whose husbands do.

One reasonably effective way to combat the humiliation that almost everyone feels when they realize their partner has been running around on them is to stand on the principle that cheating is an dealbreaker and immediately end the relationship. In fact, I think that’s often the best course of action.

But it’s also possible to be true to and stand up for oneself while pursuing reconciliation with a good candidate. I find that I’m way LESS of a doormat than I was prior to my husband’s infidelity. I’m much less conflict averse and much more of an advocate for myself than I used to be.

Of course infidelity is a dealbreaker.

The word dealbreaker indicates a deal, and deals are in their nature business contracts, so I will be using terminology that might sound business-like, for personal relationships.

That dealbreaker should lead to one of two possible outcomes: The end of the relationship or a new relationship. The classic D or R.
What I think most fail on is thinking R is simply not screwing someone else – for now.
Or the classic "I’m holding on to this deal for now, but once [place any convenient excuse here] happens, I’m out" and then placing the R label on that.

Divorce is clear IMHO – It’s the termination of a deal followed by a refusal to renegotiate on anything comparable to former terms. If no kids, chances are there is no need whatsoever for any form of deal, if kids then what is needed for their well-being.
Reconciliation is basically renegotiating whatever deal was in place. "What you did (cheat) is not acceptable. To move on as a couple, we need a deal where that is clear, as well as what assurances are made until I am convinced you are following our contract". Sort of you might place quality control, deadlines and such in a business deal.
As with all deals you evaluate it’s worth to you as things go on. You might want to end it – totally irrespective of infidelity or what has been done to deal with that. Or you might want to add more to it to sweeten the deal. As with all deals, they need to be mutually beneficial.

So yes – infidelity is and should be a dealbreaker. But if it’s the start of a new deal or the termination of a relationship...

I might be completely off base, but I feel like one of the things we’re dancing around here is the common conception that you’re a doormat and are debasing yourself if you stay in a relationship after cheating.

Bingo. That’s my feeling too. Or that having a strong principle around it is the best answer. It’s just so much more complicated than that.

When in reality the strength to leave a bad marriage is high. The strength to reconcile after infidelity is also high.

Those who survive and thrive after infidelity regardless of the outcome of the marriage have undoubtable wisdom, strength, self awareness , emotional intelligence, and a clearer understanding of who they are and what they want. They can undoubtedly stand on their own two feet should anything hit the fan. They have evaluated their values, have fought their battles.

Those who are happily reconciled didn’t just take it and stay. They went though a deep emotional battle with a person who was completely immersed in that battle with them. To reconcile is not passive or easy, to think of it as weak is to not understand what it entails.

Another point of symmetry in the wayward and the reconciling wayward. Though, not sure how widespread this view is.

Did you mean 'reconciling BS'?

My point, though not well-stated, is that I believe selfishness plays at least a significant part of all decisions, especially those related to dealing with infidelity.

We are faced in life with thousands of micro-decisions every week, and probably every day. We are, IMO, constantly comparing options, and I believe we always choose the option that we want to choose, given the constraints we have to deal with.

IOW and IMO, one doesn't really ask, 'What are my principles here?' Rather, we ask ourselves - usually so quickly that we don't even realize we're asking - 'What am I going to choose right now, and how will I justify my choice to myself?'

*****

Like others, I absolutely agree that we are bombarded with conflicting principles. No matter what, we usually violate good principles when we upload other good principles.

*****

Those who are happily reconciled didn’t just take it and stay. They went though a deep emotional battle with a person who was completely immersed in that battle with them. To reconcile is not passive or easy, to think of it as weak is to not understand what it entails.

Beautifully said.

I'll add that people who thrive battle themselves, too.

Old Wallet Kelly (as his characters called him) was right on when he had Pogo proclaim, We have met the enemy, and he is us!'

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:39 PM, Saturday, March 1st]