SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've come across an interesting thought and would love to hear your insights on it.

Recently, I was discussing reconciliation with someone who had gone down that path after experiencing betrayal. I often find the concept of forgiveness fascinating, as I personally struggle to understand how one could forgive and accept such a significant betrayal. For me it's entirely at odds with my principles. Generally speaking, though no one is perfect, I can say I live my life in line with these principles. While I can see the benefits if one possesses certain character traits, I'm ultimately unsure if I could ever comprehend the desire to forgive something so cruel.

During our conversation, the person said, "I always thought cheating was a deal breaker for me, but..." This notion is not new; many of us have heard similar sentiments before. However, it struck me that individuals who reconcile after betrayal—despite initially asserting that it would be a deal breaker—might actually be the best candidates for reconciliation.

They are, in a way, betraying their own principles just as the wayward spouse did. I’m not equating the two acts in a moral sense, but the decision-making process has parallels. Typically, most cheaters never envision themselves capable of infidelity; they hold that principle firmly. Yet something occurs that warps their understanding, leading them to act against it. This mirrors the reconciler’s journey, who once thought they would never accept cheating. Once faced with the reality of betrayal, they find themselves torn and unwilling to let go.

This fascinating symmetry, perhaps not a new concept but I thought it was interesting.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 1:52 PM, Wednesday, February 26th]

Quite the hobby you have going here

I, for one, do not believe that there is a moral impetus to punish your own betrayer, while there certainly is one to be honest and faithful. I see the drive to forgive and reconcile to come from the best parts of humanity, while betrayal comes from the worst. A symmetry, I suppose. But your framing of it doesn’t sit right with me.

Can't go cold turkey right away... baby steps.

To clarify this is not about punishment at all. What I'm talking about here is the general betrayal of principles, that is given you are someone who claims to have such principles. Is cheating a deal breaker? Yes or no. If you didn't have this principle prior to the event, it's null point.

I wonder if you can break your principle on this if it makes it easier to understand your wayward partner breaking theirs.

I understand, and I am saying that while I did hold to the idea that cheating was a deal breaker to me before d-day, and I did end up trying to R, I don’t see that incongruence to be anything like the direct immorality that betrayal represents. To overlook an offense is not the same as plotting to murder.

I fully admit, this ties deeply into my own religious beliefs. But it also reminds me strongly of the narrative of Les Miserables. The interplays of law and grace, and the seeming paradoxes that arise. But just to keep things simple, I would hold to the idea that to forgive is divine. I’m not going to twist that around in my own mind to really mean it is a self betrayal and comparable with betrayal of a loved one.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:32 PM, Wednesday, February 26th]

I guess the question remains for me then: why do we so universally hold to the idea that cheating is a deal breaker and what does that represent in us? If it’s not a moral principle, what is it? Going to have to chew on that for a while.

Drsoolers,

What is your definition of "forgiveness"?

I understand forgiving a debt, but I’m not sure what it means in this context.

My WW asked me to forgive her. I told her I didn’t know what she meant, asked her what she wanted. She didn’t answer.

But if she had answered, I think her answer would have been, "forget all about it, pretend it never happened."

(For the record, we do pretend it never happened, but "forget"? Not gonna happen.)

Maybe I’m wrong about what she meant. So I wonder what you, and others, mean by "forgive" in the adultery context.

The vast majority of people vow to stay together "for better or for worse." Choosing to forgive the unforgivable is not a betrayal of principles but the fulfillment of a promise.

I would've fulfilled that promise if my ex had been willing, as he vowed, to "forsake all others" and commit himself mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to our marriage. His unwillingness to do so made that impossible.

I think a lot of people believe cheating is an act against themself. I, however, have always thought cheating in a relationship characterized by love hurts the cheater more than it hurst the betrayed.

Perhaps as a result of that understanding, I never thought cheating was necessarily a deal breaker. Besides, once I got married, I found I liked women a lot more than I realized, so I always saw myself as a potential cheater, and I guess I wanted to be eligible for forgeiveness myself, and I hate double standards.

Perhaps even more important than that, W & I had read Open Marriage long before her A, and we both said we thought R would be possible after an A, if we both wanted R.

*****

My moral principle is to be a man of integrity. That's about me, the only person I feel I have a right to control. Other people are responsible for themselves.

After the A, I looked at what I wanted, and I guess I did some combo of rationalizing what I wanted and deciding how to actualize my integrity. I make no apology to anyone who thinks I did something wrong in that.

*****

Forgiving is a moral principle. I do not see how forgiving someone violates that principle.

One of the beneficiaries of forgiveness is the forgiver.

I don't see forgiveness as forgetting in any way. Rather, I see it as giving up any desire for revenge and for seeing the WS punished.

That's about my desire to punish or my desire for someone else to do my dirty work, not about my W.

IMO, my W earned forgiveness, so I gave it to her. That didn't and doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

*****

Above all (I got this from M1965, a member here), One forgives the person, not the deed.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:29 PM, Wednesday, February 26th]

The only symmetry that I can identify is shame- I think the bs and ws can both feel shame over betraying their principles. Many bs here talk about the shame they feel in staying, and I can understand that. It wasn’t exactly my experience, but I did feel shame over my husbands affair as it felt like an extension of mine. But plenty of bs here report feeling shame for staying.

I also think the healing journey has certain things that mirror each other, though I think healing in general often has similar strategies, regardless of what you are grieving.

I would likely not compare the two directly, but I can see what you are trying to articulate.

As for forgiveness, I do not think it’s as necessary for successful reconciliation as coming to acceptance and finding peace. I do not forgive the sin, I forgive the sinner. Though, I have found it easier to forgive him than I have to forgive myself. I think that boils down to why I stay here.

I recently asked God to help me find the answer over whether I should forgive myself and how to do it. The very next day, I stumbled across a video about this, not even looking for it.

In the video the man talks more about regrets. He said that God forgives us completely when we repent and the reason he sacrificed his son was to show how strongly his conviction of that is. The reason is because when we keep looking back in regret we are not present to serve him or enjoy the life he gave us. He said a lot of this more eloquently than I am relaying. He said that repentance is not regret, it’s admitting guilt and a promise to not repeat the offense and attempt to make restitution. But to let the sin be erased from our mind and be replaced with what is good and pure.

This resonates to a certain degree, I do feel that I have done all those things except let go of the sin. I do not know how that will unfold but I am continuing to try to internalize that and spend time talking to Him about it.

But when I think about our reconciliation, I think what makes it solid is knowing that we truly have been better off to stay together and work through it. I could not imagine having the level of communication, connection, understanding of each others internal worlds with the bonuses of keeping a family together and all the cherished shared history. No one is going to love our kids the way we love our kids. And honestly I think I trust him more not to do it again than I would a new person. I wish we had accomplished all that in a different way but I feel like we have truly learned what it means to be married and how to do it. We lost a lot of time but my acceptance comes that it’s not like if we had split in the last few years we would be where we are now with someone else.

But I agree with you the forgiveness piece is incredibly sticky. I don’t think it’s as important as accepting it to the degree that we can accentuate who we are now and letting that outweigh yesterday.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:58 PM, Wednesday, February 26th]

@InkHulk

I understand, and I am saying that while I did hold to the idea that cheating was a deal breaker to me before d-day, and I did end up trying to R, I don’t see that incongruence to be anything like the direct immorality that betrayal represents. To overlook an offense is not the same as plotting to murder.

I agree that there isn't a moral equivalence, I also don't think there is necessarily a palpably negative outcome, this of course differs when it comes to infidelity where we clearly see a negative outcome. In betraying your own principles on this matter the only negative aspect one could argue would be in terms of self perception.

I fully admit, this ties deeply into my own religious beliefs. But it also reminds me strongly of the narrative of Les Miserables. The interplays of law and grace, and the seeming paradoxes that arise. But just to keep things simple, I would hold to the idea that to forgive is divine. I’m not going to twist that around in my own mind to really mean it is a self betrayal and comparable with betrayal of a loved one

Fair, I'm not religious so not touching that one.

I guess the question remains for me then: why do we so universally hold to the idea that cheating is a deal breaker and what does that represent in us? If it’s not a moral principle, what is it? Going to have to chew on that for a while.

I have always been of the understanding that people say: 'Cheating is a deal breaker for me' as a simple precept. People decree this because we have all witnessed people being taken advantage of. We've all noticed peoples kindness being used against them. It's a simply declaration I would not allow myself to be treated in that way. In the words of the late great Christopher Hitchens: 'Which up is not something I'm willing to put'

@Fromerpeopleperson

Difficult question to address, I suppose the traditional definition of forgiveness would be to let go of resentment and anger. Perhaps more broadly an admission that you no longer hold their actions against them. Not quite the same as forgetting.

@BlurThanBlue

The vast majority of people vow to stay together "for better or for worse." Choosing to forgive the unforgivable is not a betrayal of principles but the fulfillment of a promise.

If you believe this, then you couldn't think cheater is a deal breaker. Either you'd think the marriage vows would override this belief in some way or couldn't hold that view to begin with.

@sisoon

Very insightful as always. I suppose my post is more targeted towards those who do say: "I always thought cheating was a deal breaker for me, but..."

@hikingout

As for forgiveness, I do not think it’s as necessary to reconcile as coming to acceptance and finding peace.

I have heard such things said before. I'm not sure I fully grasp them. Can you therefore forgive something internally?

What if you ghosted your partner and had no means to talk to them again? Could you never find peace unless you tracked them down and forgave them?

Suppose a loved one died before you had the chance to forgive them, would I be stuck in place of non-peace?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:58 PM, Wednesday, February 26th]

I will probably re-read some of these posts over and over again. But these quotes really resonated with me:

Above all, I got this from M1965, a member here. One forgives the person, not the deed.

I do not forgive the sin, I forgive the sinner.

I cannot forgive his sin. The transgressions were unforgivable. But I do love him, and by offering him the opportunity to stay and show me who he is now, that is extending forgiveness to the sinner.

I struggle to forgive myself for staying and accepting the transgressions in my relationship.

To your questions:

I don’t think you have to tell someone that you forgive them in order to reap the benefits of letting go. As someone else wisely said- forgiveness is likely more for the forgiver. To let go of that negative emotion and open that space for something better to fill it. we have the power to give ourselves closure without involvement with the other person.

Forgiveness is a decision that is only effective when the person is truly ready to let go of something. Healing as you are surely aware doesn’t demand a specific outcome to the relationship itself.

I don’t ask my husband if he forgives me. His grace towards me is sufficient. I give him the same grace, but forgiveness has not been discussed outside of he is aware that I struggle with self forgiveness. It’s just not the way we think about it or talk about it. We also have very different spiritual beliefs so those conversations would be pretty muddy I imagine, mine would be rooted in higher power his would be rooted in teachings that are more geared towards stoicism. I am okay that forgiveness is not the focus. Actions speak louder than words and love is the ultimate action.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:16 PM, Wednesday, February 26th]

"I always thought cheating was a deal breaker for me, but..."

I can see a WS really putting in the work deserving of forgiveness. Cheating was an absolute dealbreaker for me even though at one point I wanted R, desperately wanted it, but my xWS was not remorseful, kept lying and emotionally abusing me. Over time I also realized I never would have let go of the cheating even if he had been remorseful. I am too strong of wanting justice (probably stems from my childhood SAB).

Forgiveness is a tough one for me. I usually don't forgive horrific offenses. I have not forgiven anyone who has abused me so far in life. I am close to forgiving my xWS just because I don't want to hold onto that ick and he is a product of his own abuser. There are some acts my xWS did that I cannot find forgiveness for like hitting me, marital rape, being given an STD, and when he put his hands around our son's neck. I can forgive the A's that's all they were and it hurt him more than it hurt me because I am well past that and healed from. But the other offenses... no way!

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 6:52 PM, Wednesday, February 26th]

Bump

If you believe this, then you couldn't think cheater is a deal breaker. Either you'd think the marriage vows would override this belief in some way or couldn't hold that view to begin with.

99% of people would probably say cheating is a dealbreaker until it happens to them.

My point is that changing one's opinion about something based on experience is not the same as violating a personal principle. Not to dredge up the argument about revenge affairs, but if cheating on someone who cheated on you first to even the score would be a violation of principles, if fidelity is something you expect from another person.

Choosing to forgive is not a betrayal of oneself because you still value fidelity; you're giving the other person the opportunity to redeem themselves.

My point is that changing one's opinion about something based on experience is not the same as violating a personal principle.

I understand what you're saying but you're shifting a statement like: Cheating a deal breaker - to opinion as opposed to a principle.

I can only speak personally on this but for me, this is a statement I stand by. A principle. If for whatever reason, my current partner cheated but I wished to stay with them, I'd be breaking my principle. Much like I would if I cheated on her.

Choosing to forgive is not a betrayal of oneself because you still value fidelity; you're giving the other person the opportunity to redeem themselves.

Whilst I agree that you still value fidelity, you are no longer valuing the principle that cheating is a deal breaker.

As far as I see it, you can only view this two ways:

1) 'Cheating is a deal-breaker was never a principle of yours

2) It was and you've broken that principle.

Either of these is fine, I'm not judging anyone for it. It's simply pointing out the bizarre symmetry in reconciliation for those who previously held this principle.

Presumably you could do the same slight of hand with infidelity generally. 'I never thought I would cheat but I changed my opinion based on experience'

When you shift the principle of being faithful to opinion, like the previous maxim, you get the same result.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:43 PM, Thursday, February 27th]

I’ve waited long enough for This0Is0Fine to come along here, so I’m going to plagiarize one of his catch phrases. When I was typing out my Just Found Out anguish, he captured my attention with the idea that accepting infidelity and reconciling with your betrayer was "integrity adjacent". I can’t define it and I know exactly what it means.

I don’t like the conflation of forgiveness and remaining in a relationship. I think you can forgive someone, but choose not to remain in partnership with them.

I have long familiarity with restorative justice and have seen it embraced and practiced in situations beside which my husband’s mundane midlife crisis affair pales in comparison. I was also sexually abused as a child and have spent a significant amount of time grappling with what forgiveness means in that context. Forgiveness and grace have always been huge pieces of my core values, and they feel different, and much bigger and more important than whether I see cheating as a relationship dealbreaker or not. Seeing it as a dealbreaker doesn’t really seem like a principle or moral issue to me; more of an assessment of my own feelings and personality and desires and the relationship in question. Your mileage may vary, of course.

I don’t think I ever really saw cheating as a dealbreaker; I was just naive enough that I never thought my husband would do it, so I didn’t give much thought to it. I had a couple friends whose husbands cheated on them, and my opinions about what they should do were very situation dependent.

My husband’s betrayal devastated me, but I’ve never seen my choice to reconcile as a betrayal of my principles. It’s just the choice I wanted to make. Forgiveness and grace are different. I hold myself to the standard of extending those things regardless of whether I choose to stay in the relationship.

Same with me, Grieving.

Never thought about cheating because it never entered my mind.

When it happened, I found out it wasn’t a dealbreaker.

Seeing it as a dealbreaker doesn’t really seem like a principle or moral issue to me; more of an assessment of my own feelings and personality and desires and the relationship in question. Your mileage may vary, of course.

I was hoping someone might express it better than I could verbalize. This did just that. Thank you.