SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Need to vent/rant about white lies, as I've done before. Just a mistake along the healing journey or a red flag?
Situation...
WH and I were shopping, and he left to use the restroom, said he was also going to the car for some eye drops. Of note, he was also texting a group of guys a lot this day, not hiding anything though, leaving the phone out and openly texting as agreed upon.
However, when he returned, I could tell something was just a little off and that he didn't use eye drops. I asked him when we got in the car if I could use the eye drops too. Of course, he couldn't find them, but said he just used them and must have misplaced them. I tried to let it go and went on with the day, he brought up intimacy (I'm including for a reason to be discussed further), but a few hours later, I said, I can't let it go...I know you didn't use eye drops and did something else at the store. He got flustered and frustrated and denied it. I dropped it. About 10 - 15 mins later, he confessed that he didn't use eye drops and that he was embarrassed, so he lied. The embarrassment was an ocd trigger/bathroom thing that I won't get into because those details are not relevant. After confessing, he went into a shame spiral, and it was like a cascade effect.
Thoughts...
What bothers me is that he was seemingly fine until I finally pressed and said, "I can't let this go". He was able to bring up intimacy after lying 30 minutes prior. He could have been honest when we got back into the car or the next time when I asked for eye drops. Something like, "Hey, I had a little OCD trigger, and I didn't actually use eye drops/it was a personal bathroom issue". I would have let that go right then and there. But to lie, then lie again when I asked about the eye drops, really has rattled me. I know in the past, he never would have come clean no matter how much pressing, so he's made progress. Honestly, I would have never pressed on something like this situation.
I've been trying to focus on the good the last couple of months and stop overthinking. His reaction (shame spiral) made me go into my overthinking mode (I'm too negative, self-doubt, minimizing).

Thoughts appreciated. I reread the responses from my last white lies post, and they have been helpful. Somehow, this feels worse, even though what he lied about is very minor.

Also, vulnerable admission, this is an example of my self doubt, codependent thought pattern...
I feel so sick and sad that I'm still so vigilant/negative and send him into shame spirals. I feel so nitpicky and gross about myself
I knew he wasn't lying about anything significant (even his indiscretions were minor compared to others, and he stopped from going further). I should have let it go. Of course he feels awful all the time, divorce is still a possibility, I "catch" mistakes, I'm not being intimate. He tries so hard, does so much for me, bending over backwards for 19 months and this is the stuff I overthink.

Maybe I have OCD? Maybe I'm a narcassist?

Crazy making going on over here.

You're not a narc, or you wouldn't be feeling gross about yourself. And I don't know if you're OCD, but being "nitpicky" about lies is part of the recovery process.

He shattered your trust. He needs to be truthful at all times to restore it. He doesn't have to give details about bathroom stuff if he's embarrassed, but he does need to NOT make up lies to mask his embarrassment. Every lie is a step backwards, no matter how small the lie is.

There’s a difference between "affair" lying and "human being" lying, isn’t there?

If you ask him if you look fat in that dress, you can’t really believe the answer, can you.

Former, I agree there is obviously a difference but i my WH case he could and would lie about anything and everything. So for me to heal I need him to not lie about anything (except maybe a gift he might buy for an occasion).

So in the example you stated ‘Do I look fat in this’ we have discussed answering in a truthful but not blunt way. For example, that dress does not look as nice as some of the others you own. Or something like that.

I completely get where Less is coming from. Any lie I find is a huge trigger for me now but happy to report I think WH is finally getting it and haven’t ‘caught’ him out in a lie for a while now.

There’s a difference between "affair" lying and "human being" lying, isn’t there?

If you ask him if you look fat in that dress, you can’t really believe the answer, can you.

Everyone is different on this. My h and I have a no lies policy. (I don’t ask him if I look fat, in fact I don’t ask him much of anything in that department.)

After infidelity in both sides and all the work we put into reconciling the idea he would need to lie or vive versa literally would feel like we are back to hiding things, back to square one.

However, lessthinking, in my recent experience at work I was micromanaged and didn’t ever fell like I knew what would get into trouble for. It made me mess things up that I normally wouldn’t. So I see why you are concerned with how you are treating him.

On the other hand, you just read how I feel about lying in our post infidelity marriage. So I fully understand that you need transparency in all things.

So I can see both sides. And I am not giving him a pass, I am only taking into consideration some of his issues with executive functioning, adhd, etc. I have even wondered at times is he in the spectrum?

I don’t remember your therapy situation. But it feels like to me that perhaps you both need some coaching through this aspect. I know you have tried a lot of things, and maybe even this. But to me there has to be some way that you too can find a balance between your issues and his issues. Both of which are difficult things to navigate.

I would never say honesty is a hard thing to navigate but for some reason it feels like he is panicking about explaining certain things to you and he shuts down. And then his avoidance, you and I have spoken about this and we both agree it can’t get better until his avoidance is better because it’s a natural trigger.

Regardless of his level of infidelity, he seems to consistently compulsively lie and I don’t know how you can find that solid foundation you need to build on.

Maybe the two of you can see someone together to specifically target these issues and help you guys navigate to a place he feels a little safer and you get the honesty you deserve? I think it’s natural for you to be upset in these episodes. And I think given what we know about your husband, it’s natural for him to throw out all logic, become a deer in the headlights, and say things that make no sense.

I think you two need some concrete strategies and exercises to do, and MC to me is the best way to get that.

Hiking,

I guess, but I think there’s something to be said for just getting back to being human beings.

And the sooner, the better.

I hear you. We feel we have.

Lying has never been an issue in our relationship outside of the affairs. I just don’t think either of us see a need for it. I am always surprised when people find that weird, but a lot of people here comment they do.

I have no idea what I would even want to lie to him about. We are very easy going with each other, neither of us fuss at the other much about anything. I like the feeling there is nothing blocking our full knowing and understanding of each other. To me, lying is about fear of reaction. Neither of us are big reactors.

So for us, this is our barometer of normal. Lying would be abnormal. I hope that makes sense.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:46 PM, Tuesday, March 11th]

There’s a difference between "affair" lying and "human being" lying, isn’t there?

Not when you're recovering from infidelity, there's not. No lies. Period. If I look fat, tell me I look fat.

"Everyone is different on this. My h and I have a no lies policy. (I don’t ask him if I look fat, in fact I don’t ask him much of anything in that department.)"

Thanks hiking out

This is a policy I could live with, although I no longer have a wh (have an exwh who I am deliberately no contact with). I could also deal with a straight up "I am going outside to get out of the store for awhile" if my partner and I had established trust and they were not a compulsive liar.

As for lies and not…. My Fiance took a small amount of cash we keep for incidentals to buy me a nice gift of gourmet chocolates (so I would not see it on a credit card). We don’t have any financial issues that would preclude the purchase of chocolate on occasion. We have no agreements to the contrary of taking a certain amount of cash and not accounting for it. It was a nice surprise. Not a lie. I like nice surprises. I just do not like nasty lies.

As for triggers, I truly am sorry for everything we went through that causes triggers. I wish us all much health and healing.

IDK ... With your history of posts ... I'm pretty sure you don't maintain your boundaries the way I expect my W and me to defend ours. If you don't defend your boundaries with enough vigor, you may be causing yourself problems.

I object even to so-called 'white lies'. Something unhealthy goes on in the head of someone who's lying, and that would set off warning bells in me, especially if it's my supposedly formerly Wayward Spouse doing the lying.

I'm with those who think 'no lies' is the best approach to life. I understand that sometimes words have to be chosen carefully, but ... no lies. Besides, IME, life is just easier that way.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:14 PM, Wednesday, March 12th]

"I object even to so-called 'white lies'. Something unhealthy goes on in the head of someone who's lying, and that would set off warning bells in me, especially if it's my supposedly formerly Wayward Spouse doing the lying.

I'm with those who think 'no lies' is the best approach to life. I understand that sometimes words have to be chosen carefully, but ... no lies. Besides, IME, life is just easier that way."

This ^^

^^^^ Times Two!!

If you ask him if you look fat in that dress, you can’t really believe the answer, can you.

Why ask a question if you are not expecting the truth?

Former -

There’s a difference between "affair" lying and "human being" lying, isn’t there?

Part of me agrees with this- a big part of me. I consider myself empathetic to a fault.

HO - Agree on the spectrum, which I think plays into my over-responsibility and guilt.

I think given what we know about your husband, it’s natural for him to throw out all logic, become a deer in the headlights, and say things that make no sense. I think you two need some concrete strategies and exercises to do, and MC to me is the best way to get that.

So true, and we have tried MC several times, but how he presents in sessions, ugh, so much masking (not lying but trying so hard to accommodate neurotypicals). I can't take that along with coordinating it all, managing it all, for now anyway.

In reading posts and thinking...So he admitted he gets embarrassed and ashamed about the "dumbest" things. So my brain is triggered because if it's so hard over the dumb things, then when it's something significant, it's going to be even more challenging, to be honest. So him not working through the core issue just doesn't give me confidence for future "slips".

Sisson

I'm pretty sure you don't maintain your boundaries the way I expect my W and me to defend ours. If you don't defend your boundaries with enough vigor, you may be causing yourself problems.

You are absolutely right. I keep saying no lies, ever, but here we are. What are the consequences for your boundaries, let's say, white lies? I struggle with the consequences part. I told him when I found out about his hidden flirtatous friendship that he has to come completely clean, or this marriage will not work. He didn't come clean then, so maybe that's why I'm so stuck. I stated a boundary, and one part of me is holding to it, and another isn't. Not sure that makes sense.

Update: We had a brief conversation just now. We have decided some space is needed. He has agreed to stop pursuing me as more than friends. I need for him to learn how to be a good friend before I can feel emotionally safe with him. We tried to do this a couple of times before, but our codependency patterns got in the way. We will talk later on the logistics of this. We live in the same house/different rooms, and we have a teenager. Typically, in the past, he gets so awkward and weird that I cave to save him from himself and family disruption. I am NOT doing that this time!!! You heard it first.

Reconsider how you look at boundaries.

It’s not exactly a rule/consequence situation if the consequence is punishment. That’s not working anyway, are already consequences for his behavior such as losing intimacy with you, seeing how upset you get after each time he lies. That is not working. Besides, you can’t control anything other than you. Because if his issues I suspect there has always been a bit of a parent/child dynamic, and that has exacerbated since his affair. Is this correct?

It more of a "this is something that effects my peace of mind, and I must make these boundaries work for me"

Right now I think he sees any infraction as the marriage will end. He catastophizes the outcome of even minor things. Do you find that to be true?

Has he always lied or is this been more since the affair?

I personally think that maybe what you need to think about is a way to negotiate you both feel safe in the relationship.

Your options really are:
1. Try a predetermined period length where you both can relax a little and simply work on detaching. You are barely of ever intimate, you are in a known risk in this marriage of betrayal at least with lying if not more. You say you don’t want to (or are not ready) to end the marriage. Detach from the outcome, he is not able to produce that for you right now anyway. Let it all go, knowing that forcing someone to tell the truth is not helping your peace either and hurting the way you see yourself. So basically a cease fire. Rest and get back to it when you have more energy. Focus on what you need and want in all areas of your life other than your relationship.

I think staying in top of him is sucking your energy and may or may not be causing him to walk on eggshells. I think you believe that too. Rest until the time limit ends and reassess. Then decide if you want to spend time on detachment longer because you see it’s helping, maybe that detachment will allow you to grow more objective and possibly bring clarity to you about what you want to. Mental and emotional exhaustion is a thing.

2. Go to your own therapist. See if they can help you define boundaries you can live with.

3. Stop the fight, he is incapable of helping you rebuild this relationship. Pull the trigger on ending the marriage.

4. Keep doing what you are doing. It seems to be not changing though so for sure even if you do not like these suggestions, it’s insanity to keep doing the same thing hoping for a different result. If you employ your own therapist perhaps they can give you a better route than I would be able to.

Also I know you all have done Mc, and I get his presentation of what happens is different than what you see as reality. However, I imagine the work was more related to the affair? I am thinking two sessions specifically about navigating this specific issue may still be worth while. I hear you though, you are tired and overwhelmed, which is probably not the spirit to go into this with. Maybe try scheduling something at the end of your detachment period.

I believe the romantic part of your marriage is not going to be revived until like you said he fixes this issue. I think there is a lot of uncertainty of he is even capable of addressing the issue. But if there is a parent child dynamic and he fears "punishment" (I know it’s not punishment, just natural consequences of his actions) then for sure he is going to keep hiding. He needs to address his avoidance, but to do that I think he needs to feel safe. I think you above anyone else in your house deserves to feel safe. So to me the only rational conclusion I have is to say - take a break- stop focusing on him and his changes- his issues are well known to you. Detach from it and rest in that detachment. See how you feel after you come up for air after that period.

I am just now seeing your update. I kept getting interrupted before I could submit it. You did what I was suggesting without seeing my response so I am in agreement. This is a much needed break.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:24 PM, Wednesday, March 12th]

" Right now I think he sees any infraction as the marriage will end. He catastophizes the outcome of even minor things. Do you find that to be true?"

That’s what I’m on about. If the price of reconciling is walking on eggshells the rest of your life, maybe that’s too high a price.

What has been made clear to all of us is that relationships come with risk.

You have to decide if the risk is worth it.

If so, take a deep breath and carry on.

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

Thank you, and very well laid out. That all makes perfect sense. Yes to what you said about parent/child, peace of mind, infraction=catastrophizing, and he has always lied, most often about very minor things. I often think he almost likes to cause trouble/get caught. Maybe I used to find that endearing? I can't imagine that, I DO NOT now!

Yes, trying option 1 because

He needs to address his avoidance, but to do that I think he needs to feel safe. I think you above anyone else in your house deserves to feel safe. So to me the only rational conclusion I have is to say - take a break- stop focusing on him and his changes- his issues are well known to you. Detach from it and rest in that detachment. See how you feel after you come up for air after that period.