SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Dear Trying,
I hope you are finding some answers for yourself and are healing a little more each day. I am 7 years out from the end of the affair, maybe 5 years out from getting to the truth of the decade long betrayal. To answer your question simply, yes. I have had to change my definitions of husband, marriage, friendship and love on this journey. I am still figuring it out.

First, I believe he has been out of infidelity in thought and actions since the end of the affair, thanks to Covid lockdown and moving far away for a retirement fresh start. Whether or not he has grown, or changed or found his way to honesty in all things is the unknown for me. Once I got past the early desperate years, when all I wanted was to have my husband and my life back, and went back into therapy and made the hard decision to stay, I began to see a shift in myself I never expected. I began to feel ambivalent, and at times worried if I was falling out of love with him. I do love him and I always will, and prior to the affair would have told you he was one of the best men I ever knew, the most honest, trustworthy, caring and reliable I could have hoped for. Once that reality was shattered, I had to figure out what I was left with.

I am left with a lot of what I call muscle memory. We have been together since 1983, grew up together and built a family, a business and on paper, a great life. Even when I was at my most furious and defeated with his R efforts, I still felt care and concern for him, and missed him when he was away for work. That was honestly the low bar I set for staying. He was still the first person I wanted to tell things to, to talk to, and I was always happy to have him come home. But.

My heart cannot forget what he did to it, my brain has had to rewire itself to find a way to stay when leaving would have been an easier path to healing. I consider us married legally, but I don’t think of marriage like I did before. We are parents, business partners, roommates, adventure buddies, and he has been a huge help to me through some health issues. I am grateful for his presence in my life, but my heart aches whenever I think of what became of the myth of us. I am cynical and disappointed, and I gave him back my engagement and wedding rings when I got to the bottom of the pile of lies. I won’t ever wear them again. I bought a thin band of twisted gold, and told him if our relationship ever felt solid to me again or if I could heal enough and learn to trust in his promises that I would consider a new, solid band, but rings are the least of my cares now.

The biggest shift in how I view our marriage is that I no longer feel bound by my vows. I honor and keep them, but the better or worse part has an asterisk. I will walk away at the first whiff of further deceit or betrayal, or even the slightest lie. I have stayed through his worst, so better is all I will accept. Our marital bonds are frayed but holding for now. I have to remind myself that we did have a great, loving and loyal marriage for 20 years before he turned away from us and toward selfishness and the scum on the internet. That may have more weight in my decision to stay, knowing that we at least had a true marriage for the first half of our lives. I am still finding my way through this second half.

Discussions with my therapist about the merits of tending this relationship to see what else grows, and the love and close relationship with our kids that we still share, and the different kinds of love that remain, all have helped me to find my path to acceptance. I am still walking it. I have changed a lot internally, and am less kind and accepting with him than pre-A. I am brutally honest, I put up with no crap and I call him on any selfish or thoughtless behavior and remind him how I expect to be treated. It’s been tough on him, because I was the nicest, sweetest, giving and nurturing person before, and she is gone. I am learning to be ok with things being about me, and not being bothered if he is bothered. He got to keep the life and wife he swears he desperately wanted, and he is learning to accept this new version of me too. I am learning to accept that how I believed he loved me and would keep me safe from harm was just wrong. The person I believed him to be was wrong. The things I believed about us were wrong. I see him as a much more flawed and broken person now, which is crazy, because he presents as a solid and predictable guy. He once was, and maybe he will be again. But maybe I am much less invested in whether or not that happens.

As to our expectations, monogamy is mandatory for us both, or we D. Even if I met someone who swept me away and fell madly in love, I would not have an affair until we separated. I have not lowered my personal standards to match his. I bring it up from time to time, asking him if he is still willing to operate under the initial agreement, to forsake all others, in mind and body, and he swears he is. He swore to a lot of things that were lies, though, so he is paying the price of those choices with my inability to trust him fully. But. My life is better with him than without it, so here we are, despite all odds.

Good luck to you finding your path to new definitions and acceptance. Nothing about this is easy.

NoThanksForTheMemory - I am curious like the PP - What are you current expectations for your relationship? I.E. are you both expected to stay monogamous?

As of now, we are living in separate households on weekdays and together on weekends. This is for our kid. Weekday residence is a block from her school. Weekend is a long-owned property that's further away. This is working great for me, not so great for WS. He doesn't like being alone, but the property is too big for me to manage with my disabilities, so it has to be him there.

I don't have any expectations other than that he respect my boundaries about contact and communication during the week, and that he is honest with me. We talk if necessary. We have video calls on some evenings so he can have time with our kid. Regarding monogamy, I have zero interest and very little ability to date (due to health reasons), and I'm happy being alone. I told WS that if he decides he can't handle the current setup or wants to see other people, to please let me know and we will divorce. I don't care if he wants out.

Right now I'm preserving our legal status because it's less work and I think it's good for our kid, who seems generally happy. But honestly, WS keeps asking if I'm ready to try R again, to have cuddles or intimacy, etc., and I'm starting to think that I have to file for D. He keeps begging me to stay, but I wonder if he's letting himself be miserable because he fears the alternative.

I am 3 months away from the second year post Dday.

We decided to reconcile but the marriage we had is dead. We are legally married, I still wear the ring but inocence, a genuine sense of safety and belonging to each other is gone. The way I perceive it now has changed. He broke his vows. He betrayed me. If one looked at our family photos taken at the time he was cheating on me, they would see a loving family. All I can see is a man with a secret. He hurt me more than I could ever imagine.

I now see that I have changed and am still changing. I don'resist the process. I do feel resentful a bit that I have turned into a cautious, doubfful and callous person. I take everything he says with a grain of salt. It's harder for me to feel truly carefree and joyful and not a day goes by without me being painfully aware of what he did.I am in IC and trying to figure out how his infidelity has affected me.

He has changed, too. I made it clear that this is his only chance. Our marriage will not survive another betrayal. If he ever, ever does it again, I will leave and never look back. We are in MC. We are trying to build something new on the ashes of our marriage. He has been trying to be supportive and caring for nearly two years. He weathers the storm with me on bad days. When I let him, he holds me while I cry. We both sob, out loud, like little children. He owns his mistakes, apologizes a lot, validates my feelings, and gives me no reason to doubt him.

I feel we are on the right path, but there is still a lot of work ahead of us. After nearly 2 years post Dday, I no longer feel furious about what happened. I no longer fantasize about plotting a revenge to both of them. I have accepted what happened. But I still have nightmares. I am still hurting and trying to heal.

Whatisloveanyway - Thank you so much for sharing your story! I am in the infancy of this recovery process comparably but I can draw a lot of parallels between your own healing and journey and my own so far. I also feel ambivalent at times but I am finding it is more so during the times that I knew he would cheat i.e. when I am working and whatever. I think this is definitely a coping mechanism for myself.
I also have the foundation of an amazing connection or friendship?? with WH to which is definitely keeping me here. I have told him that no matter what I will always love him but the "in love" feeling is what I am trying to see if that stays or not.
The "myth" of them was a really good way to put it. I look at him and what I used to see him as vs what I see now is often a foreign sorta feeling. Almost like I know him so well but at the same time feel like I know nothing about him. Maybe with time that will change but it seems like you are a good indicator that that may not.

NoThanksForTheMemories- I'm glad to hear you're finding your own way to happiness. It seems like having your own weekday home and just spending time on the weekends with him is working for you. I suppose it isn't really working for him. It seems like the more he pushes the more you push away. Do you think your child ever sees that side? or perhaps if you both weren't into showing too much PDA, then maybe this was the norm for your child to see anyways?

Oizys - Ugh, I can't wait for the day when it doesn't feel like we are trying to run through mud in this healing journey. It feels so difficult, never ending and exhausting. I hear a lot of people say 3-4 years until you start to feel better. Or rather a new normal?
I also hate seeing pictures of the time during his cheating. Sometimes I will stare at some and try to analyze it for ANYTHING. It always just looks like a happy couple or family and no one would be the wiser. It really makes you wonder how many people you see on social media and whatever that are actually going through these tough things and no one would ever know. Sometimes this feels like such a lonely journey and then you read some of the forums on here and really see how many people are going through something very similar to you.

I look at him and what I used to see him as vs what I see now is often a foreign sorta feeling. Almost like I know him so well but at the same time feel like I know nothing about him.

Exactly. I struggle because he acts the same as he did before, during and after the affair, and I haven’t seen anything I would call personal growth or change on his part. Maybe your WH can show you change that will help you feel like you know him again.

I asked my therapist if ambivalence is what acceptance looks like. She said sometimes. Since my WH isn’t interested in healing, rebuilding or any of the work I needed to feel safe and close to him again, it’s probably the best I will get. I had hoped for some meaningful conversations, leaning in, rebuilding the team that was us, but that is not how he handled this. There have been other threads about this, but my guy is high IQ low EQ and probably on the spectrum, very methodical and controlled. Not a thoughts and feelings guy. He claims to have always loved me the same since we met, but I can’t reconcile that, and told him he needs to explore what love means to him, because you don’t hurt the people you love, especially over and over. He said he didn’t think I would be so hurt, but I was never supposed to know so he never considered how it would affect me. I don’t think I have gotten him to understand the horror of thinking it would just be ok to live a secret life and leave me in the dark forever. That, along with his refusal to engage or discuss or help me through this snapped a lot of the emotional bonds I had for him. His loss - I’ve been very open and verbal about what I need and that the costs of those unmet needs are high, and becoming permanent.

Like you, we have an amazing bond of friendship, shared interests, common sense of humor and personalities and we have had an amazing life, except for this. However, when pushed beyond his emotional comfort zone, he gets angry. Scary angry. A part of him I never saw for 30 years! I had seen flashes of that anger, but never, ever directed at me. His usual deal is passive aggressive semi-joking comments, and I knew that side of him. Angry guy just made me feel more like I was sleeping with a stranger. I thought we both were open books to one another, nothing could go unsaid, nothing to hide. He is confused when I tell him I am trying to get to know him again, because he thinks he has not changed and worse, does not need to. I am envious of people here who can see their spouses doing the hard work to rebuild. My guy thinks staying, choosing to stay together and continuing on with our lives is all the work he needs to do.

I’m not sure about your WH, but mine has gone from solid, steady and predictable in my mind to a puzzle I haven’t solved yet. I struggle to see the better parts of him now that I know about the other parts. It took the shine off of our partnership, friendship and love for me. It also made me ask the hardest question of myself, which is how much of how I viewed him was me seeing what I needed/wanted him to be and failing to see him as he truly is. Blind trust and a fixed mindset about how and what people should be to one another kept me from looking behind the preconceptions and asking myself if what I was really seeing in him.

About the pictures from the cheating years, I still can’t look at them. I stopped all the memory posts from those years from shocking me, but once in a while I will stumble on one and unravel for hours. Anything in my life with a date gets sorted into before, during and after. The during years, family photos spanning a decade, make me upset still. I showed him one and said when I look at this I see a foolish, clueless wife and a husband living a lie. He said I see a fun family vacation we took. The compartmentalizing gene I did not get. He knows I cannot handle photos or memories from those years, and most especially our false reconciliation months. I’m happier to avoid them than try to EMDR again or psych myself into trying to enjoy my photo albums or blog again. I let that go.

I’m so thankful for this place to seek and offer support. It is scary how many of us share similar stories and journeys. I think my profile should note that my responses are distorted by a LTA with false reconciliation and a WH who lacks empathy, remorse or a commitment to work on himself. I don’t want to frighten those who have more to work with than this.

Oizys, I have changed in many of the ways you mention. I liked the before version of myself so much better. I liked being a loving trusting and giving person, but I trust in nothing now. Like you, if there is a whiff of another A, he knows I won’t just be gone, but I will ghost him and he will not speak to me again except through lawyers, and I will finally tell the kids who their dad is. I’m pretty sure he is scared straight, but again, I trust nothing. I wish he and I could cry together and share our pain like you, but aside from a trickle of tears once in the first year, nothing. I hope your IC helps you find clarity and peace. I know mine helped me through the toughest times and have given me a lot of new tools to navigate my new life. It is very hard to get the lizard brain unstuck from the trauma, panic and nightmares and moving toward resilience and healing, but I have to believe we can all get there eventually.

I think of marriage as a bundle of "sticks".

Some of the sticks come are found in traditional vows: love, honor, respect, caring, commitment, fidelity. There are, no doubt, other sticks that some think of as part of "marriage": companionship, sex, children, honesty, kindness, cohabitation. Probably a long list.

What happens when sticks are removed from the bundle? Is it not a "marriage" any more? Is "marriage" all, or none?

Brides used to vow, "obey." Not much anymore. Are we less married by its absence?

The fidelity stick is particularly problematic, isn’t it? When the fidelity stick is removed from the bundle, the "respect" stick probably comes out with it. Maybe the "caring" stick, too. And the "love" stick, and the "commitment" stick, as well.

With all those sticks gone, not much of a bundle left. Is there still a "marriage" left?

Some of the posters in this thread seem to have very few sticks left in their bundle, except, perhaps, monogamy.

Is that, then, the defining characteristic of "marriage"; monogamy?

Lot of sticks missing from my bundle. But monogamy is there, and commitment. I think of myself as married.

When have you stopped being married, regardless of legal status?

I think to sum up what marriage looks like now…it’s good. We are two people who are more self aware, we create more win wins. We have an active and healthy sex life. We enjoy being together, even if it’s just on the couch watching tv.

We have been to hell and back, but we have a lot of clarity. I would say we trust each other as much as you should trust another, even if it’s not the way we trusted before.

He is far more supportive of my endeavors, that part is not as one sided as it was. And I easily give of myself without taking in martyrdom status. I am glad we stuck through it, however, I am like Tanner in that I would not be interested in getting married again should something happen to him. I could be wrong about that because people change their minds, but it’s hard for me to think about the investment and what it may cost in the long run. However, I am almost 50 and have little reasons left why that level of commitment would be needed. I would consider a companion, not sure about cohabitation but probably not.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:39 PM, Wednesday, April 9th]

It seems like the more he pushes the more you push away. Do you think your child ever sees that side? or perhaps if you both weren't into showing too much PDA, then maybe this was the norm for your child to see anyways?

It's true, we were never into PDA. Also, his affair started 5 years ago, when our kid was only 10, and we started sleeping in separate rooms soon after (I actually instigated it because his snoring was so loud that I couldn't sleep). At this point, she is used to seeing us with plenty of physical distance. Plus, about a year into his affair, I got covid and have been disabled ever since, so I can't even climb upstairs to our bedroom most of the time. I don't think she remembers what we were like before.

Also, WS first cheated (a brief EA) back in 2014, so there were a few years in between that and his LTA where we were close, but now that I look back on those years in my journal, I can see where things shifted between us. At the time, I blamed it on having a kid and jobs and being busy, but I wonder if it was because he had briefly gotten interested in someone else. We were definitely having less sex than pre-kid, and he was frustrated by that. Then I went into perimenopause about year before his LTA (I started young), so that didn't help the situation.

People like to think that sex and love are separate things, but for my WS, they were closely tied in his mind. It allowed him to justify a lot of his bad behavior to himself. Now we have a 100% dead bedroom, and he is sad, but oh well.

Our kid (now 15yo) is autistic and isn't the most clued in about the emotional states of people around her, so I don't think she sees anything strange about our dynamic. Maybe when she's older, if she enters into a mature relationship, she'll figure it out (if we're still together). But she also has a lot of examples of adults who are in similar situations - my father-in-law and his wife live in different cities for much of the year. My parents are together but emotionally pretty distant. My mother-in-law is still single (divorced 50 years ago). And she's a teenager, so she's more concerned with her life than ours. LOL

(apologies for thread-jacking - I digressed a bit while answering the question!)

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 12:06 AM, Thursday, April 10th]

whatisloveanyway - Gosh it sounds like you are in a tough spot. I have read a lot about how important it is for the WS to acknowledge what they did, change behaviour, do deep dives, etc in order for the betrayed to heal. Do you feel like that has impacted or slowed your healing? Not understanding it is one thing - we can't always fully understand whator why the WS did and their behaviour during cheating! - but the hope would be that he would want you to heal and put in the work. As someone who is with a serial cheater, I think if you don't change anything, then how can you prevent it from occuring again in the future? Maybe he will be able to look at it from a more analytical or logical point of view.
That Love topic is a real tough one. I have discussed this with WH and it goes through my mind a lot too. It's so incongruent to say that you love someone so much, you are their world, etc and then they are still able to hurt you so much. Their actions aren't in a grey zone either. They are partaking in something that is so wrong and hurtful to their spouses. When your H said he didn't think it would hurt you so much, did you ask him if the roles were reversed and he found out you were doing the same thing...would he have been hurt?

My guy things staying, choosing to stay together and continuing on with our lives is all the work he needs to do

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Is he so sure that you will stay though? What if what he is doing currently isn't enough for you?

Formerpeopleperson

That is very thought provoking. I never thought of it like that - "sticks in a bundle". I suppose it is different for everyone. Some sticks may take up more space so when they are taken away, it is felt profoundly. For the ones that end up leaving the marriage, I guess their bundle is too sparse. For me, my H is a serial cheater. I was able to put my sticks back a couple of times but this time more of them were taken and it's harder to put them back. The idea of what a husband should be and what me WH has done don't align. I have seen a lot of people have to re-envision a new outlook on the subject and I think I am too early to do that yet. My WS is still working on himself so until I see what changes can happen, our reconciliation can't fully happen yet.

Hikingout - thank you for your story - I hope I can get there when we are 7 years out too. I am 7 months in (DDay3) and it is still really tough. A lot of figuring out and work to be done.

NoThanksForTheMemories - do you ever miss aspects of being with someone? Not necessarily from your H but just someone in general? I know you said you had challenges that would make it hard for you to enter in another relationship. I am a person that generally enjoys being in a relationship so I think that if I did choose to leave, I know I would probably end up in a relationship after some time to figure things out. That being said, I am 38 and would want some companionship.

NoThanksForTheMemories - do you ever miss aspects of being with someone? Not necessarily from your H but just someone in general? I know you said you had challenges that would make it hard for you to enter in another relationship. I am a person that generally enjoys being in a relationship so I think that if I did choose to leave, I know I would probably end up in a relationship after some time to figure things out. That being said, I am 38 and would want some companionship.

I'm a lifelong introvert, and for a while, I was convinced I be single for life. Entrusting my heart to my WS took a few years, but eventually I took the plunge to get married. Right now, I don't miss a thing. I have my little apartment set up exactly the way I want. I cook and clean in small ways that I can handle. I meet friends for lunch when I have the strength, and do video calls when I don't. I'm quite content and don't feel lonely.

Once upon a time, WS and I did a lot together - camping, biking, travel, concerts, movies, TV shows. We were into the same kinds of books and music. We loved to eat out and throw parties. That has all changed over the past decade. On top of that, he is chaos when it comes to home life. He recently (in his 50s) got diagnosed with ADHD and has just start medication, so we'll see if it make a difference. When I was healthy, I could clean up after him, keep the house in order, stay on top of bills, etc. It's much harder now, and it pains me to see things around the house in chaos, but I simply cannot maintain it anymore. We've also diverged in hobbies and tastes, and I mostly watch movies and shows alone, in bed, on my tablet, while he plays video games on the giant tv (which bothers my eyes).

My chronic illness (ME/CFS) is unlike most others in that any kind of energy expended can become exhausting - even talking to someone. I really need a quiet environment. Being alone is good for me. I can't fathom trying to strike up a new relationship as long as I'm like this, but luckily I'm quite happy on my own.

There's a big difference between 38 and 50, though, especially when at 50 I feel more like 80. LOL I think most people (even my peers) would seek out companionship after being single for a while. Maybe I would too, at some point, if I felt up to it. I certainly would never marry again, though.

I have been with the same woman for close to 50 years, married for 43 years this August. Post Dday just over 3 years from a very long-term affair. We never separated or divorced but we have basically started over with a new marriage. This one feels so much different in good ways and bad ways. Our early years together started off with much passion and desire and dwindled very slowly through our years together. Marriage now as we are both in our mid 60's is so much different for many reasons. Physically and emotionally, we have both changed. The LTA has scarred both of us and as far as I'm concerned has filled me with constant doubts about how much I really mean to my wife anymore. I do believe she loves me but is not attracted to me anymore. This could be a physical issue as well as an emotional issue with her. On most days I feel like roommates and then on some days we can be the complete opposite. We both work well together around the house, and we have always been affectionate and saying we love each other. But I can't help but feel some sort of disconnect with her since her affair ended. Since the affair I have made a lot of inaccurate assumptions about her and have taken a lot of things she has said or done the wrong way. LTA's really mess you up in so many ways. I will finish with this thought, we are wiser now and more appreciative of each other, but the affair has taken something away from us. We did have some foundation left to build on but it seems so much harder sometimes with all the bad that has entered our marriage through all of our years together. We are older and wiser, and we still carry the scars and the pain from our bad choices in life. She is still the only woman I would want to walk through life with, and I would do it all over again with her if I could go back in time.

Lost1313