SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Okay, quick recap because my situation is like "cheating lite", not intending to minimize.

WH has had 3 different situations of cheating. The worst was a kissing fling, the last situation (13 months ago) was inappropriate texting with a different coworker who lives out of state. He has since passed a polygraph of nothing more happening.

Once I discovered these texts he stopped initiating any communication with her and if she has communicated with him he has kept it strictly work-related. The rule has been to show me all communication. He has told me any time he has rcv'd any communication and shown me on both his phone and work computer. Well, I got snooping and found one Microsoft Teams phone log of a 10-minute phone call between the two of them 3 months ago. I can tell from the Teams chat it was initiated by OW (who has no idea I know of anything and I'm sure just thinks he got himself back in line, stopping inappropriate texting). I could also tell they had been talking about work issues and probably needed to sort something out.

WH has told me recently they haven't spoken on the phone in 13 months. He didn't tell me about this call though.

Additionally, they are possibly going to be in training together in a few months and he said they haven't communicated about this at all. I also saw on the Teams chat WH mentioned the in-person training off-handedly on Friday. The chat was also hidden.
He has not shown me any recent work communication nor have I asked.

Now I'm trying not to get bent out of shape over this because it's like he his lying/omitting for nothing. Maybe his ADHD/Low Exec Brain? I know the day of the phone call to OW he had planned a date night for us a week before so maybe he didn't want to bring the call up and then he forgot? Am I being naive? What if he did tell me and I forgot? How could I forget that? Am I gaslighting myself?

I plan to ask him to see his work communication tomorrow when we are both teleworking and see the response.

He has been working HARD on R and I've been living in limbo. Also on Friday got a notice from the court about our D filing expiring in less than a month. I filed but then "wait and see" land....which has turned into POLF land for me.

Thoughts and opinions would be appreciated. My gut is telling me he isn't hiding anything inappropriate but he IS hiding small dumb shit, which is a rule/boundary I set for R.

Personally ‘lying by omission’ is an area that I said was something I won’t put up with. I will not tolerate it at all.

My husband trickle truthed and lied by omission. The behaviour reminds me of a school boy in short trousers, hands in pockets, bottom lip out, looking at the ground and sulking when he’s caught. ‘It’s not my fault mum I didn’t say I WASN’T going to go to Gary’s after school’.

But you did ask him outright and he lied. Does he see Teams as different to a phone call? Just like some cheats appear to see oral as different to sex. Does he lie in everyday life? This isn’t an ADHD issue. In my opinion it is normal cheaters logic.

After I found out I used to ask questions like, have you spoken, text, WhatsApped, emailed or used any form of written/verbal/ communication including sign language, semaphore or carrier pigeons? He would object. I would say but you choose to lie by omission so I want to be 100% clear as you prefer to lie by omission.

I eventually got fed up with this and said it’s his choice to be a liar or not but a sulky 14 year old isn’t attractive as a husband. It’s pretty pathetic. He has worked hard on this. He lied by omission to avoid feeling uncomfortable. People pleaser. Doesn’t like confrontation or being the bad guy

You say he has been working hard, what does that look like for him? Because he is still choosing to lie. Why is he choosing lie over truth?

He could have said ‘Lessthinking my colleague contacted me at work today about a project, here is the chat. I am sorry but I had to reply because of x or y.’

But he didn’t do that. So he may be ‘cheater lite’ but he’s a liar. And therefore I’m not sure he is doing the work. He may be talking the talk and doing the do but only when someone is watching.

Cheaters lie. Your husband just flat lied to your face. Why not go ahead and file, lessthinking? Get yourself out of the analysis paralysis. This is a sign. I know you will try hard not to let this latest be the straw that broke the camel's back, so since you ask, just step back and see the big picture. Life with him always hiding things will never be okay for you. If nothing changes, nothing changes.

Superesse - I did file for D about 10 months ago, we even signed an agreement. I just haven't turned it in to try and let the dust settle, try and see if R was possible, etc. The filing expires in 3 weeks, ironically got the notice for that Friday. I feel like he has changed but continues to have a propensity for lying, and omitting dumb stuff.

Abcd89 - You are describing him to a T. He is a people pleaser BIG TIME and is omitting to avoid dealing with the hurt/guilt.

He typically alerts me immediately if he has any communication. He has made a lot of progress and I like him a whole lot more. However, and this is a doozy, I don't feel romantic towards him in any way with this "schoolboy" behavior, and these omissions no matter how small continue fueling the resentment I'm trying desperately to work through.

Sorry if my use of the word "file" was misleading, as I know you had already started the divorce process. I'm simply saying you need to complete the action you started if you don't want this to be your life. I know you don't want that to be true. Again, you asked for opinions. Sorry to say I have this opinion.

I appreciate genuine feedback, no matter how difficult to hear.

He kept this information concealed and hasn't revealed it to you. You found a 10-minute conversation. That's a long time to talk to someone about a work issue. He has also discussed their upcoming training together and kept that information from you.

Is this what you expect from R?
Is this what you want for your future?

Only you can decide what is acceptable to you. He is showing you who he is.

I'm sorry. :(

He’s hoping you don’t D him but yet he’s lying and cheating.

Yes that 10 minute phone call is cheating IMO.

Seems to be more of the same. You deserve better than this. I hope you know that.

See my tagline?
Harsh as it sounds then you have decided to place this misery on yourself. Your husband is still working with OW, and it seems that it is unavoidable that they work together – at least sometimes.
This is why I consistently suggest that to reconcile the WS needs to be removed from environments that can lead to contact.

Is it unavoidable that OW and your husband are in some work-contact?
If so and if you haven’t placed a total enforceable ban on ALL contact then that 10 minute call can be work related. Its an omission to not tell you, but maybe he thought a 10 minute chat about budgeting was OK.

I once managed a guy caught in a workplace affair. I could (at his request) assign his work in such a way he didn’t have to contact the OW. Is that possible?
The training – are there alternative dates?

Other than that – I think you should point out that the divorce petition needs reaffirming soon, and that he has that timeframe to convince you that he is committed to the marriage.

If you can't trust him to be honest about the "small stuff" then he's never going to be honest with the big stuff, either.

Also, the funny thing about "people pleasers" is that they're so intent on making everyone happy... at the expense of the one person they vowed to love, cherish, and protect above all others.

I think you've already got it nailed down: He's an avoidant people-pleaser.

If so and if you haven’t placed a total enforceable ban on ALL contact then that 10 minute call can be work related. Its an omission to not tell you, but maybe he thought a 10 minute chat about budgeting was OK.

This is possible, but it doesn't explain the hidden chat.

My H still works at the same company as the AP. In the first few years after DDay, they didn't have to have any work contact at all and we had a solid boundary that he was to tell me of any contact. Then he got a promotion that meant he had to talk to her about once a quarter. He didn't tell me that, and I found out about it well after the fact. His rationale for not mentioning it was that it was strictly work and that he didn't realize that I would care about minimal work contact after such a long time.

All that to say: Since his boundaries are crap, I think it would be wise to tell him that you want to know of ANY contact of ANY sort with the AP. Discernment doesn't come into play if your requirement is that he tells you of ALL contact with her.

@SadieMae, @The1stWife, @BluerThanBlue, @Bigger (thinking deeply on that tagline) - Thank you all, you are all right. It's so frustrating to see it not working over something so stupid.

it is unavoidable that they have some work contact and that he needs to stay where he is etc. That is why the boundary of keeping me informed.

I plan to ask him tomorrow and if he continues to hide the chat, lie, conceal, and/or gaslight then I have my answer :(

A ws can't be "working hard at R" while still talking to the ow,and lying.

It doesn't really matter what they've talked about. He's lying. Nothing has changed. He's still a lying liar that lies. That goes hand in hand with a cheating cheater that cheats.

^^^^^Right here^^^^^

So you decide to give him another pass on this one, take your time, and then need to refile the D papers at a later date after you've really reached your limit? Or you just go ahead and submit D papers now or whatever is the procedure to get a date for separating yourself from this nonsense. I'd recommend you stop placing yet another "bet" hoping for a jackpot. Start counting the days to a different life, however that looks for you.

I'm learning something about my WH and the possible reason why he cannot seem to learn from his mistakes, little as they are, to change his offensive, rude or inconsiderate behavior that by now he ought to know will be bad news for the both of us. And I think this likely applies to recovering from Infidelity and explains a LOT about the confusion of a supposedly hard-working, remorseful spouse who keeps showing he doesn't get it.

Researchers have discovered we have a neurochemical feedback loop in our brains' anterior cingulate gyrus that in some people doesn't fire as it should. It is called the ERN. Normal people's brains will measure an electrical spike after they screw something up on controlled tests that then has been shown to signal another part of the brain to help us "correct course" in the future. But with people like my WH, and possibly yours, this ERN signal does not fire very much when they make moves they ought to know are going to cause trouble, and so ooopsie, there they go again. I think you know what that means for those who are tethered to someone with this kind of head. Big picture is you and I are not able to change someone else's brain wiring, so either live with the constant annoyance or...? Best wishes...

The fact that he is still in communication with her and lying [by omission or direct question] is a problem.

You could ask him point blank and his will have the litany of excuses from the Cheater's Handbook. He forgot, didn't think it relevant, didn't mean anything, was only work related, blah blah blah. There is no excuse. He did it, knew he did it, and lied about it. That is not working hard on R.

What you do about this is up to you. But this does not bode well.

@Chaos - You are right and I can hear it now, "I thought I told you, It was about a computer problem, I didn't hide the chat I don't know how that happened"

@Superesee - super interesting about the ERN, going down a rabbit hole now. This totally resonates for WH.

[This message edited by lessthinking at 10:54 PM, Monday, September 23rd]

From the Microsoft Teams support page

By default, calls and meetings are shown in your call log. Once turned off, you will still be able to make and receive calls as normal, but calls and meetings will no longer be added to Recent on that particular device.

It only applies to that particular device, so if you're using multiple devices it needs to be switched off in those as well.

Does he use multiple devices?

Not wanting to make you more suspicious, but hiding a log is a deliberate step, it's not the default. I wonder if he has it switched off on other devices, but hadn't done it on the one you've seen, which is why it was then hidden.

This constant wondering when you'll find the next thing and the next thing and the lame excuses and wondering if it's just more of the same is why I can't R with my ex.

@pinkberry - it's his only device but that being said you are absolutely correct. I will always wonder in the back of my mind. Trust being rebuilt won't ever take the reality of that away. It's like an innocence was lost that I can never get back. I just hope I'm not resentful forever. I really don't want to make a decision from that space.

Just wanted to say that life goes on after legal divorce and it doesn't have to be all or nothing for you, lessthinking. Your WH is who he is, and will continue to be who he will continue to be, given his brain wiring, etc. Character can change with lots of effort, yet some critical aspects of a person are truly hardwired and it is believing a fantasy to expect change in those aspects. You clearly must love him enough to not want to give up due to his issues, yet you are paying too much of a price to hang in with him as his wife, as several of us have already expressed. You could set yourself free and still remain on good terms.

Superesse - you are correct. It feels like all or nothing and the attachment after being together for 34 years is so strong, it feels unbearable to consider either way.

UPDATE: would love any honest feedback.
While we were both teleworking I asked about his communication with the OW and if they had communicated. He pulled up Teams and showed me the conversation. He said he never initiates and keeps it strictly work. He hides the chat from view because it either goes "stale" or he doesn't like to see the name/picture. He was not defensive in the least and openly let me read. It was all work and always initiated by her, simple questions. Reminder she doesn't know I know anything so she has no reason to think she shouldn't be contacting him about work stuff since they are on the same team, just many states away.
I asked about the Teams call. He doesn't remember talking to her at all. We looked through the chat together and she asked to call on Teams about a work issue. He was able to pull his call log and it shows, and I could hear, he was talking to a client at this time for like 18 minutes. He also reminded me that 6 days later he passed the polygraph and feels there is no way he would have been able to pass not telling me he talked to her. He thinks he remembers telling me she tried to call. My memory is fuzzy but I kind of think he may be right. He has no clue why it shows 10 minutes. He feels he would have remembered talking to her because he gets sick to his stomach ever even thinking about it. He seemed very honest and open.
THEN he had a trigger meltdown and started getting in his head that this was a setback and he became anxiety stricken, fully catastrophizing. He eventually calmed down, I kind of just observed, then he apologized for all this hurt he has caused, etc.
I didn't even get to have a meltdown (except on here) about it until later. He said it was very triggering and I was like triggering for you?!?!?!?!?!?!?! What about me??? He listened to me rant about that and that's when he got very remorseful.

I've been in my head ever since. Back and forth. I hate this.