SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yes, people can definitely change , but not in 3 weeks time. I agree with the advice about detaching a bit. You need to be the star of the show , pour into yourself… focus less on him and what he says and does and more on what you need. It’s ok to have those long conversations but understand that they won’t resolve what happened - you need time to see if he consistently changes and not just a bandaid that he’s applying right after the fact. I’m curious about why the relationship had issues "because of you" in the first few years ? Either way , as you said "He had a million healthier choices he could have made and he chose the one and only decision that destroys the very relationship he doesn't want to lose. ". Remember this .

There is something about what he did which which isn’t clear to me, about the sequence of how he got to where he did.

When people wander away in a marriage, it’s usually a gradual process. Flirting here and there, then crossing a line here and there and more often, or maybe entertaining fantasies about being with another person, and if they like it enough, the movement away sticks, and they eventually do cross the line. It’s a process of steps that lead to betraying their partner.

The way he went from complete loyalty and devotion to physical contact with your girlfriend in a matter of 2 days, seems rather abrupt, to say the least. Leeleelu asked you if you had checked his computer for signs of interest in other people, for a history or indications of these "steps". I wondered the same because it’s so surprising he went from 0 to 80 in a matter of hours.

Are you sure he hasn’t crossed the line before? Are you sure he has had contact with this woman before she came to stay with you? Is it possible the groundwork for their ease with physical contact wasn’t already laid? Did they make a connection on earlier occasions at parties or weekends with your friends?

The fact he could do it while you slept in the next room is what kept me thinking about this the last couple of days. That’s is really next level. I’m sorry to add to your burdens, but I think either this relationship isn’t new to either of them, or he’s been AWOL in some way for a while.

Is it possible he resents you for something? I don’t know the dynamic of your relationship, but are you strong woman? Does he put you in "charge" even if you don’t necessarily want to be? Women in that position can find themselves resented, not initially but later in a relationship. This is complete speculation about the two of you on my part. But there is something going on that he’s not telling you about. Be sure of that. Perhaps he will be able to articulate it through therapy — if he’s honest enough.

It’s just that what he did is simply cruel. But you say he was always so great. Something doesn't add up.

Have you gotten any REAL answers from him yet other that his compliance, even his willingness to sacrifice himself for your benefit by moving out so you "can have time" to sort out your thoughts?

Edited to say I am being ironic in my last sentence just in case it isn't clear.

[This message edited by Elica at 5:24 AM, Friday, September 25th]

I agree with Elica, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'm trying to imagine...from your fiance's perspective...if my SO wanted to sleep in the bedroom alone while we were on vacation, and wanted me to sleep in a room with his buddy... I'm sorry I would not agree to that. I would be freaked out just by the request.

Also, your friend tagging along to your vacation is odd. I can't imagine going with a couple on vacation. And if my friend announced I would be sleeping in a room with her fiance so she could have the bedroom to herself due to insomnia, I would absolutely pack my bags and leave. These sleeping arrangements would make me incredibly uncomfortable no matter who I was in the situation. It's crazy to me they were both totally fine with it.

I agree with Elica.

It seemed too easy for him to cross a huge boundary, I would also be concerned he may have done this before. Something seems a bit off.

Many cheaters love bomb their partners to keep them off track of possible red flags.

For a different perspective than gradually sliding towards infidelity, take my SAWH as an example. There are people who have disorders or childhood traumas that lead them to do all kinds of illogical, crazy, and even schizophrenic "splitting" of themselves. We cannot determine that from this distance but trust me, it happens. And in such cases, marriage is not recommended. Period.

The sleeping arrangements were my idea, very stupid I know. But I cannot overstate how much difficulty I have sleeping and how much it affects me. This is a well known thing by everyone who knows me closely. The apartment was extremely awkward and small with no space to sleep, so it was my idea to get the one and only bedroom while she slept on the couch and he slept on the air mattress. The bedroom was also tiny with no real bed, not even sure if the air mattress would have fit but we should have tried when I requested. He was about to move it, it was lifted up in his hands but ultimately I was the one that said never mind, unfortunately. She joined us for 5 days during our 2 month vacation because she lives on the other side of the world and we were a 2 hour flight away from where she lives and she and I wanted to see each other. It was likely the only time I’d get to see her so she flew over for those few days.

The first 3 nights nothing happened, it wasn’t until the second last night where he called her out for her being flirty because he liked the attention and took it from there. That conversation was 10 minutes and then the next night (the last night before she left) he brought it up again but then took it further. He said it came from a place of insecurity, low self esteem and selfishness, and that he was only thinking of himself. He also felt relief from our relationship burdens. He had his first session in therapy last night so we’ll see where that goes. It is an extreme shock to me regardless, because like everyone here, it is hard to imagine such devotion turning into the betrayal that it was. I think part of him resents me for how I treated him earlier in our relationship (emotional neglect on my end) but I am not sure, it must be a mix of things but that is for him to get to the bottom of. There’s no excuse either way, which he clarifies. It’s just an extreme jump and such a shock he took it there.

I really don’t believe he has ever done this before. Like I said, we live together and he works from home, I could take his phone into the washroom and lock it and he wouldn’t flinch. Same with his laptop. It is why my guard was down as much as it was, i don’t think he’s love bombing me into thinking otherwise. There really weren’t any opportunities for him to do this, as crazy as that sounds. We are attached to the hip and have been for years and have freely given each other our devices. Nothing shady has ever been found until now, there’s never been weird behaviour, we are quite literally always around each other. It wouldn’t have been possible.

Edit: when she lived closer to us before she moved, they were quite chummy with each other then. This is where I believe the "groundwork" was laid. Nothing happened back then, but he said both of them in their minds had questioned "was that flirty?" a couple of times before. And then during this trip I guess it affirmed those feelings even more. She did say she was surprised by his actions because she thought he and I were very happy - I don’t believe there was anything more than this before. And I don’t believe he was AWOL anywhere else cause again, not really possible. So yeah… I will never be able to make sense of this.

Edit 2: Why I also believe there was nothing else previously is because he immediately handed over his phone and laptop. As in, I would leave the apartment and leave him with no devices at all because I had his laptop and phone and I was able to go through every single thing I wanted. He didn't have time to delete anything and there was nothing there.

[This message edited by funnything at 4:21 PM, Friday, September 25th]

You asked Pogre this -

May I ask if there was a moment where you felt a sense of peace, like she finally was becoming the person she needed to be for you and for herself? And what stood out to you the most from her healing herself that made you feel more secure to want to stay?

I'm going to give you my answer, now 9 years reconciled. My WH did most of the right things almost immediately. But what really mattered were things that I learned about myself, not my husband. I got to a place where I knew, no matter what he did, that I would be OK. He was genuinely remorseful, told me things that I wouldn't have known otherwise, put up with all of the pain and anger, some of which still comes out on rare occasions. But the big difference is that I will not be destroyed if something happens to us, sad as it will be. I don't quite know how I got there since I only had a few sessions of IC, but something just turned in my thinking where my lifelong low self-esteem and insecurities fell away. Part of it was the incredible strength I had to tap just to survive that period. I was suicidal at first as I was dealing with parental illnesses and deaths during the A and D-day, friendship betrayals, a stressful job and a stalkerish OW who I thought was a good friend. But I could never have done that to our son, and my getting through the depths of that and deciding I was not going to beg or plead for my marriage, made all of the difference. I relate a lot to 1stWife's experience in that it was truly life-changing, albeit painful. In the intervening years I've finally realized that, though I'm dorky and awkward, I'm also loyal, generous, and authentic. Finding my own self-worth was key to our successful reconciliation. You sound reflective and mature, and I suspect you'll be OK no matter what as well. Hang in there. (edited an inevitable typo)

[This message edited by GrayShades at 8:42 PM, Friday, September 25th]

Not to be negative but it’s always possible even if you think it couldn’t be. I hope you’re right but either way he already crossed the line in this situation so you know he’s capable either way. How are you doing ?

I used to think flirting was harmless, but not any more. We have all learned that here. Every time someone flirts, what they’re essentially saying is "I am available" to the other person. Flirting opens doors to potential behavior we can deeply regret.

There is a great book by Shirley Glass called "Not Just Friends". She stresses that even good marriages (or relationships) can run into trouble because of poor boundaries, vulnerability to manipulation, whatever the case may be, down a slippery slope that is very difficult to come back from.

Both my husband and I read it, and it was extremely helpful in teaching us how to protect our marriage in the future. So important. Those questionable things we once paid no attention to from the outside world or people, we let slide because we felt so strong and invincible together.

Not any more. Anyone who is suspect is out now. When my husband is out in the world, if he gets even a whiff of flirtation, he becomes extremely cold and rude. Completely against his nature because he’s a very friendly open person. But this is a decision he made and this is what he does now. Same for me.

Reading the book together gave us many opportunities to talk about the various scenarios and examples she brings up, and helped bring us closer together again.

He and I were always bound at the hip like you describe your relationship, so I think I understand what you’re saying there. We both most always worked from home and were and are together a lot.

It was hard to get through the betrayal and many times I wanted to give up. But now, 8 years later, I am so glad we stuck it out. FYI, it took less than eight years by the way. :) Our marriage is healthy again, we learned things about ourselves and each other which have made us even stronger. I have no regrets.

Elica, thank you for sharing that. I'm having a rough day and needed to read that. I'm genuinely happy that you've found yourselves and are happy. I hope we get there, too.

Pogre,

Actually your wonderful post from the other day inspired me to say something about where we are now after everything. I think it’s important for people here to hear about good outcomes.

Still, writing that makes me a little nervous …

I am so sorry you’re having a rough day. I remember those days, sometimes you get triggered by specific things but sometimes they seemed to come out of the blue. You go right back there …

But the time span between them does get longer and longer. There are things which used to trigger me which I’m completely neutral to now. I never believed that was possible, not really, even though I read reconciliation stories here where people came out on the other side. They meant so much to me. I will always be grateful to the people on this site.

The picture you painted at the beginning was like a fairy tale and just as unbelievable. No one is that good. He must be exhausted keeping up that facade. He is loving. Yes. He is kind. Yes. He cheated. Yes.
This is when you MAKE him drop the mask. He needs to get very real with himself before he can be with you. And you need to accept your reality. You are never going to look at him with rose colored glasses again. We have all been there, done that.
You can have love but the person he has been all this time needs to stop lying by commission and omission, otherwise this play acting he has been doing is going to continue. The last thing you want to be is the marriage police. You need time to breathe. He needs therapy. A lot of it.

As you can see there are many divergent opinions on your situation. But in the end everyone responding to you is writing subjectively.

Your experience is your own and you know best what to do.

I was thinking rather than trying to sort everything out at once, which is completely understandable, take the pressure off yourself and give yourself a time frame. Stand back, and wait to see what happens in the next six months for example. Try to have no expectations, just see how he does and how you do. Keep doing the work and see where it goes. You will know more and will have more clarity to decide where to go next.