SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Great post! I have always felt it's most healthy for married couples to share finances. It's best to consider finances as "our money," instead of "your money" or "their money." My wife and I have always shared - but we got married young (at 21), and it never occurred to us not to share.

I'm saying this as someone who has always made at least twice as much as my wife, since she was a teacher for 30 years until she retired. I always viewed us as a unit - "two becoming one flesh." However, neither of us has been "overly" foolish with money, and we had the same financial goals. If one of us had issues with foolishly spending money, we may have considered splitting finances - but we never ran into this.

My daughter recently got married at 27, a little later in life than we did. It took her and her husband about a year before they combined finances. They have an interesting dynamic in that she makes more than he does (she's an actuary, he's a chemical engineer), but he's better at saving than she is. She really likes to travel to see her friends all over the country. But they're working through it.

When I went through marriage counseling at our church 35 years ago, my pastor told me the two most important things to a marriage were finances and making my wife feel safe. I have always taken this to heart. There has never been "financial infidelity" in our marriage from either of us.

Bigger, you need to teach courses in common sense.
My husband is a car nut. I will not disclose the number of cars and other vehicles we have owned but one time I caught him drooling over a one of a kind which he was going to buy. I felt the earth move and not in a good way. I asked him to think about it over night. The next day he said he was not going to buy it. This is when desire bows to common sense. He said he would have gotten so much joy out of it for a couple of days and spent the rest of his life regretting blowing through that much money.
As a social worker I found that money was often part of conversations with parents who chose to spend a couple of thousand dollars on entertainment systems, devices, you name it, but begged for money for food to feed their children.
In the US we have govt health insurance for many children and disabled adults. I have a job that provides our private ins so I have left it to my husband to manage our business but my name is on it.
I nearly lost it when I read how much Americans are in debt to credit cars, car payments, mortgages, loans etc. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs says we need food, clothing and shelter. We also need love, nurturing love, dependable love. We do not need the latest cell(mobile to you Brits).
A foster mother I work with teaches her foster children from Monopoly money. They need info about how much tax is taken out of their salaries. Gas(petrol), rent, food, fun, all take money. None of them have a clue yet they are told goodbye when they become 18. Yes, this needs to be taught in school.
So Bigger, none of us talk about money. We can discuss everything else but never that and it can have tragic endings. Recently, here in the US a father killed his family and himself over the amount of debt he was in. When I was young conversations were about family. With the info in that little square in our hands we see EVERY SINGLE DAY someone has a good life because of money and shame when they lose it…and we want what they have.

Originally the title was financial thermometer, but I changed it to barometer. Unlike a thermometer that gives definite information, a barometer gives an indication of an expected result. I’m not saying that all infidelity can be seen in the finances; a ONS at a bar, a quickie with a coworker at the Christmas party… don’t leave a clear financial trail. But I do think that openness in finances and that a couple work together in that field can be a good indicator – a barometer – of marital health.

I think we tend to make two big mistakes in personal finances…
The first it NOT to view our finances in a comparable way as a business might… You would never have a business that would rent a space, design a logo, print the business cards and still not have a clear idea of how they are going to make things work out. The two most important factors in a business are income in and expenditure out. No flashy logo can save a negative result.
A couple should (IMHO) have a plan, a joint view, on where they are headed and how they plan to get there. Like… are you going to finish your degree? When do you plan to have kids? One or two or more? Where do we head career-wise? How do we want to live? Where do we want to live? How do we plan to do so? What role do our (past) families play in our lives and all that.
Of course, this doesn’t need to be as detailed as a good business-plan, but if a couple have decided that in 5 years they plan on buying the family-home in a specific neighborhood then that can help them accept the dingy little rental they are in right now.
You don’t become financial stable by accident. You do so by intent.

The second mistake is precisely to view finances the way a business might…
Like… a business can calculate using MIRR and IRR and ROI that taking a loan with a lean against the business property to buy a bottling-machine makes sense because the financial gains outweigh the financial cost. Even then they might choose the base version of the machine that bottles 1000 per day, rather than the one that does 5000 because that’s all they need. With depreciation and all that there might even be tax-benefits to being in debt…
In personal finance we might lease a new vehicle behind the excuse that we need to get to work and home, and that’s why we get the flashy vehicle with the glittering paintjob, the loud stereo and the sun-roof. When a paid-for 2015 Civic could have gotten us just as fast from A to B. Still paying taxes on income…
It’s unicorn-rare that personal debt "pays off"…
Personally – I don’t think any debt other than a sensible mortgage makes "sense" for personal finances. I personally have only once financed a vehicle and I regretted it daily. I’m doing fine, and my "newest" vehicle is a 2017, bought used 2019 fully paid.

Gotcha beat Bigger - Still driving my 1997 F150 - bought used (very low miles)
I like the low "personal property taxes" and for some (dumb!) reason - NC doesn't require a vehicle that old to pass EMISSIONS inspection. ??? I keep it working properly anyway.

Also have a 1979 SeaRay - bought from junkyard and rebuilt (as a hobby?)- biggest expense is $200 year insurance.

Thanks for this post. I have loads of questions. I found out a few months ago that once we were married, my serial cheating WH stole all of the jewelry my 93 year old mother gave me. She gave me lots of jewelry in the 1970s and 1980s. Real semiprecious stones and 14k and 18k gold settings. I know he gave it to his brother to give to his wife who bragged that her H always gave her this type of gemstone that she hated. (My birthsone)

She bragged that her H gave her this type of jewelry for her birthday, anniversary and Christmas and she didn't know why because she hated this stone. I did not realize that these pieces were already stolen because I always put things my mother gave to me, away to keep. I never took things out of the box I just kept them nice. Now it's all gone. They left me one small bracelt, one necklace and two pairs of tiny stud stones. They have maybe $2000 worth of jewelry.

Last year I found out I was nothing to him, ever. He married me for my money and I even bought him a house. He used me to get his real GF to leave her H. She did. I've been married for 30+ years and he's been stealing expensive and ooak items from me the entire time. He paid her rent, dined out and even went on vacations with her. He gives small $100 gifts like my jewewlry, my designer wallets, and trinkets to his former GFs too. He still takes his HS GF out to eat on her birthday. I believe he is a narcissist.

What is the first step to getting this jewelry back? See an attorney or just make a list of missing stuff with a real police officer?

Do you think it's possible to get this stuff back if they stole it in the 1990s and it's 30 years later when I discovered it?

[This message edited by MarjiLann at 9:31 PM, Saturday, May 2nd]

Our finances have always been 100% joint. I do more of the day to day bill paying and management, and we talk through all the bigger stuff together. I don’t think we’ve ever fought over money in 26 years of marriage, and I can’t imagine a scenario where we would be on vacation and one of us do something that the other didn’t due to money. That sounds miserable and pointless to me.

There were no expenditures related to my husband’s affair; no financial trail I wasn’t seeing. We’re pretty conservative spenders by nature, and his affair was with a married work colleague during Covid, and fancy dinners, outings, gifts, etc. just weren’t part of it.

The complete enmeshment of our finances, however, was the source of considerable stress to me when I discovered the affair, because my 100% financial all in on the marriage would’ve left me pretty unprotected had we divorced. Part of my own journey to recovery in the aftermath of his affair was figuring out what a financial future without him might look like. We haven’t changed our financial arrangements, and I still prefer joint finances and 100% transparency, but my experience made me realize that 1) affairs can have zero financial trail (my husband was too deep in a fantasy bubble to even buy condoms🙄), and 2) joint finances can leave you pretty vulnerable in the event your partner decides to step out on you.

MarjiLann you should speak with an attorney about your matter. Divorce attorney to start.

Marjian

The absolute worst advice offered on this stie tends to be legal advice. Mine included. What might be right in my square inch of existence might not apply in your inch…
But… I have a feeling that 30 years puts this too far back for any real legal criminal action – as in charging him for theft. But it might impact division of assets and/or spousal support. A divorce attorney can possibly use your story about his ongoing misuse of your property to show how his actions were controlling, abusive and depreciated your assets. That might lead to you getting a larger share of marital assets to "even" things out.

Other than that – Does your BIL wife know the "gifts" were originally yours? I think that would be the correct place to start.

I can certainly see how separate finances could make cheating easier, but it certainly wasn’t a barometer in my marriage. I was a stay at home mom and all finances were combined. He had one credit card not in my name and it was mostly used for business and it wasn’t hidden from me. His cheating was done with small amounts of cash that I knew he always carried. I never thought a thing about it. 🤷‍♀️

Really great post Bigger. Thank you. This tackles one of the big 3: communication, sex and money.

I'm jumping this thread back to Page One because... well... because I can

Plus - in the last 2 weeks there have been 2 threads in JFO where the BS discovers financial infidelity and/or marital finances being used to finance an affair. Maybe those posters could benefit from this post.

Most likely, our financial openness and shared phone account prevented my wife's affair from continuing longer/becoming worse. But just about like anything that makes your relationship more or less prone to an affair, you can't affair proof your marriage.

I really think my wife and I had a model marriage prior to her A and she did it anyway.

Not sure I've added much to the conversation here.

I totally agree that finances should be shared and open in a marriage.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:18 PM, Monday, September 14th]

My wife and I have always combined our finances. While that didn't prevent infidelity from happening (obviously because I'm here) we've always been very transparent about finances and have never had separate accounts. We both have access and aside from small stuff we've always communicated and made purchase decisions together.

While we've definitely had some disagreements and issues with finances in the past we've always handled them together, and it's never been a major problem. It's always worked very well for both if us. We've never kept a ledger or focused on who contributed what. It's always just been all "ours."

Helpful post!

I kick myself over and over that I never checked the finances. I had blind trust. In the beginning, we both did the finances together, then I was solely in charge, and then he was solely in charge (as circumstances changed, our system changed). I had the mindset of divide and conquer. It never crossed my mind that he could screw me over. I only checked that my paycheck went through correctly each month. If I had checked everything, I would have found out years earlier. Or he would have just found other ways to hide it.

I also would have bet my life that he would never cheat and would have died. I forgot who first said it, but I like that saying.

Me and my wife have always had completely separate finances. Even if they had been joint nothing ever happened from a financial perspective so she never would have gotten caught that way.

My first marriage I had joint finances, and every penny spent was a fight, so for this marriage I removed that friction.

I am a little all over the place in this post.

I agree marriage is a practical, legal agreement that for some who don’t believe in it could be bypassed maybe with a basic contract that makes some of the automatic things happen. Though in many cases insurance is going to be the biggest obstacle to benefit from regardless of what you had drawn up.

However, I am in a romantic relationship inside my marriage. One that holds things that have nothing to do with paper -tenderness, passion, friendship, someone to care for and to care for you. So I am uncertain that there is any one thing that holds it all together more than trust. At the end of the day, it’s not the price of paper but maybe the things you vowed to do.

If you think of trust as a rope with many threads, I think your marital chance after infidelity depends on how many threads you still have in tact. these threads have varied weights and it forms a rope that I think of as trust.

With that context, money is a heavy thread that is trust related. Fidelity is another. There are many others maybe thinner, but if you have enough threads left you can remain tied together better while the loyalty one is repaired.

So in terms of finances, I have always managed our personal finances, and I kept books for our businesses though he makes most of the financial decisions with my input. He is the proprietor really, I have always had outside employment. We have been business partners for most of our marriage and it’s created a stronger form of trust both ways when it comes to money.

So in the wake of infidelity, I don’t think all our trust between each other was broken. That’s not to say a very important one was, and one that all in its own took a heavy toll on our marriage. But, when there is still trust in other areas, I do think that helps the repair (if desired) because you are not starting from complete scratch even if it calls a lot into question.

When he asked for a divorce as the first dday anniversary was fast approaching, I was willing to sign over the businesses. Noone hired a lawyer, we sat side by side at the table and filled it out with no arguments. I didn’t do that to be manipulative, I sincerely felt that if I took my share it would be harder for him to continue to build them and since I was the reason for the marriage ending it would be unfair of me to cripple him in the business that he had been building. He didn’t deserve that, even if I was a big part of steering the success up until this point and even though the seed money came from joint assets. To me that was moot. It could survive a division today, but ten years ago he would have been leaving a 20 year marriage and having to likely sell off what was left of the business.

However, the fact I did that had a lot of impact on him in not filing the papers. He saw that as proof that I genuinely cared about him and that I was willing to accept consequences for my actions.

The fact I affirmed my trustworthiness in one category ended up carrying enough weight that I was given a chance to make the other repairs.

So I am not sure that it’s a barometer of infidelity, but it’s a barometer of trust. I think for people deciding whether to continue the marriage after infidelity, the bigger picture of the marriage can be important- do I still trust them in other ways? What things have they been able to stick to, communicate about, offer me over the course of this relationship? The less that’s there the less chance the ws can make that many repairs, the less the bs can see value in sticking around for.

I do find it ironic though- we have never fought about money our entire marriage. We have been poor either and very comfortable together. It never impacted our personal relationship. Not even at the discovery he had given his ap some money in a few cases. That would have been hard to find in the numbers however, she was our employee and it was just put in some of her paychecks. While I didn’t like it, I never would have missed it and he did tell me about them.

So from a wayward perspective, a couple of things: build trust and safety in every opportunity not just those related to infidelity. And when the trust has been breached never let your spouse learn that any way except from you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:49 PM, Thursday, September 17th]

I do find it ironic though- we have never fought about money our entire marriage. We have been poor either and very comfortable together. It never impacted our personal relationship.

Same with my wife and I. Even after d day we didn't untangle our finances or separate our accounts. It never even came up. That's always been a non issue between us, and I'm now wondering if having such a thick surviving strand of trust that has never been damaged helped keep the rope together for us. There has never been any monkey business from either of us when it came to our finances.

She didn't spend a single penny on her AP. He paid for the hotel room and food. I absolutely would have noticed it. She would also notice if I mysteriously spent money on something like that.

I use the word "barometer" because a barometer is a tool used to predict weather. Unlike a thermometer that states factual info on present temperatures. I am 100% convinced that in the majority of infidelity, there are clues, pointers, indicators and tells in the finances.

When posters start threads in JFO about possible infidelity I regularly suggest they follow the money:
Why did my wife charge $$$ at the lingerie store, same day as $$$ at the parlor the day before leaving for that conference? Why is there a charge for dinner, and the amount more than a single persons meal? If business – why not charged to the expense card. Why no reimbursement for a business expense? Why a withdrawal from an ATM in a part of town we don’t frequent? What purchases are made with withdrawn money? Why transactions at the mall when he/she claims to be working? Where are the purchases for those transactions? What’s that transaction from a supplier I have never heard of before?

Those that state they have separate finances:
If your marriage ever comes to an end – be that a natural end through the passing of your partner or a divorce – you will quickly discover that the finances aren’t that separate in the eyes of the law.
That 10k you managed to squirrel away – chances are your spouse is entitled to half the value of that money. That inheritance you had deposited into a mutual account… no longer solely yours… That boat you paid for with "your" money – starts sailing in the cesspool of "marital assets".

Since I seem to have wrung any ounce of romance out of the institution of marriage I might as well carry on:

It only makes sense for a married couple to have some form of estate plan or will in place. Not least if this is a second or third marriage with kids from the previous waiting in line for an inheritance.
This definitely varies state-by-state and country by country, but in many places if there is no will there can be a very tense and difficult period before you get some view of your financial future. With a will or official legal plan, that period can be limited to a few days or weeks.

And my idea of real romance? A better way to tell your spouse you love them?
A life insurance policy that ensures they can manage a comparable lifestyle for some years after your passing…