SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello!

I posted awhile back about my MIL who had back surgery last August. She was in the hospital including in hospital rehab for over a month. She was discharged to a rehab facility and stayed there for 2 weeks. She was back at home in October. Before MIL could come home, Husband and his brother (BIL A) were getting the house ready. While there one day, BIL A heard water running and discovered that the water heater needed to be replaced. He bought a new one and my husband helped him replace it. They have another brother who is out of state (BIL B). BIL A sent a group message to my husband and BIL B asking his brothers to share the cost of replacing the water heater. MIL has been out of work for months and has no additional income to contribute. Both brothers send money to BIL A.

Fast forward, BIL A and my husband take turns spending the night and caring for MIL through the month of October. Come December, they start going through things to pack or donate as MIL cannot afford to stay in the house. Hours are spent going through things as MIL is a hoarder. We move MIL to an apartment in January. The house is finally empty in March and listed for sale. The sale is finalized by the end of March. BIL A and husband ask MIL to be reimbursed for all of their expenses during this time now that MIL has cash in the bank due to selling the house.

Last night, I received a text message from BIL B's wife (SIL). She wants to know if MIL paid us back of if BIL A paid us back the money for the water heater. MIL paid us back as the water heater was paid by the brothers, for the mother. BIL A had different expenses than my husband and we didn't know if BIL B wanted his portion back as that was his only contribution during this entire time.

SIL is insisting that BIL A is pocketing money from this. She told me to talk to an accountant because she is 200% right. Well, I don't have an accountant, so I thought I'd post here to see what you all have to say. She gave a made up example to explain how things happened so we use those fake numbers throughout the discussion. The water heater was actually less than $800.

SIL-

Right, but how this purchase works is that BIL A paid for the water heater. I don't remember the exact number. So, let's say 1,200 for the water heater. MIL pays BIL A 400, Husband 400, and BIL B 400. But BIL A only asks for his portion for MIL, and MIL pays Husband 400. But BIL A paid for the whole thing. We don't want any money from it, so BIL A profits 800. If MIL is giving Husband money and we said keep it, BIL A needs to give MIL 800. Does that make sense? Other wise BIL A is pocketing 800.

Because we all gave him the money not MIL

What BIL A needs to do is give MIL the full portion of money for the water heater minus his pay which she gives him the money.

Me-

Using your example:

BIL A, Husband, and BIL B all paid $400 towards the water heater. It was purchased and installed. No money left. BIL A asked for and received his $400 back from MIL. Husband also asked and received his $400. BIL B doesn't want his $400, so MIL keeps his portion.

SIL-

As of right now BIL A has our portion and Husband's

But MIL is out 800

Me-

Why would BIL A pay MIL for the water heater that he installed? BIL A only has what he paid. Not our shares.

SIL-

BIL A should give MIL the full amount of 1200 for the heater, then MIL needs to distribute the money that each child wants

Me-

Where is BIL A going to get $1200 when he spent it on the water heater?

SIL-

Right now BIL A is pocketing the money of our share that we want MIL to have.

From the payment of the three kids

What needed to happen is that MIL paid the full amount back to BIL A and A distribute the money back and we give MIL the money back to her for our gift to her retirement. This gets super messy.

Me-

So you want MIL to give BIL A BIL B's 1/3 so that you can give it back to MIL?

SIL-

We didn't give MIL the money we gave BIL A

Did MIL pay back BIL A the full amount of the water heater

Me-

No. Only his 3rd.

SIL-

Right, so MIL should of pay BIL A for Husband’s third and BIL A give Husband his money back. Because Husband did not give MIL money for the water heater.

Currently BIL A is pocketing Husband's portion and MIL is funding for Husband's portion.

BIL A needs to give MIL Husband’s portion because Husband gave BIL A money not MIL but MIL paid back Husband.

Me-

I don't understand why you think BIL A has extra money. BIL A can't give MIL Husband's portion because it was spent on the water heater and BIL A only got 1/3 of the money from MIL, not the full amount.

SIL-

The reality when is money being refunded it needs to be refunded by the person that money is given to in the first place.

Currently BIL A has an extra 400 dollars paid out from Husband that MIL paid out back to him.

SIL sent an image of a note typed up trying to explain herself and it doesn't make sense.

Me-

BIL A starts at -1200 paying for the water heater.

Gets 800 from Husband and BIL B. Still -400

MIL pays him 400. Equals 0

SIL-

Check your math it doesn't equal out since 1600 has been paid out

BIL B portion is zeroed out

Me-

$800 of the $1600 went to pay the water heater. The other $800 is MIL paying Husband and BIL A back.

SIL-

MIL paid BIL A 400 and paid Husband 400

But Husband paid BIL A 400

BIL A got paid an extra 400 for the water heater

Me-

The 400 that BIL A had from Husband went to pay for the heater

SIL-

Right but MIL shouldn't of paid Husband the 400 because BIL A got the money from Husband

BIL A should of refunded the money to Husband

SIL gives an example of Kohl's and Nordstrom which makes no sense. I don't bother responding to it.

SIL-

BIL A owes MIL Husband's 1/3 portion because she paid out Husband's 1/3 portion even though the water heater was paid for by BIL A.

Me-

MIL would have to pay BIL A the full amount in order for BIL A to pay Husband back his portion.

SIL-

No BIL A needs to give MIL Husband's portion because she gave Husband the moneys and Husband gave BIL A the money

Talk to an accountant

I'm 200 percent right

BIL A is screwing MIL over on money. I'm not saying he's doing it on purpose but uneducated

800 has been paid out from MIL, 800 has been paid out to BIL A that equals 1600 not 1200

400 of that money needs to be refunded to MIL

Me-

BIL A used the 800 to pay for the water heater. And MIL paid BIL A and Husband back for the water heater.

SIL-

Right, MIL paid 400 to BIL A 400 to Husband

That equals 800

But BIL A has received 800 from Husband and BIL B and paid 400 himself

Equals 1200

He received 400 from MIL for a refund

Which means he still has 800

BIL B doesn't want any money back

Me-

He spent 1200. And has received 1200.

SIL-

I'm not going to continue to argue BIL A has an extra 400 from Husband that MIL refunded but Husband gave BIL A the money. If you can't do the math I don't know how else to show you.

The boys should of just paid for it after what their parents have done for them

I stopped responding at this point and haven't heard anything since. At the start of the conversation, Husband called BIL B, but he didn't answer. BIL B called back and said he's at work. Still haven't heard anything else from him.

Will someone explain it to me? I don't know what else to say.

Edit- missed a name.

[This message edited by little turtle at 3:50 PM, Sunday, April 6th]

Will someone explain it to me? I don't know what else to say.

Ummmmmmm, perhaps math wasn't her strongest subject?

Your SIL is nuts. Maybe this can be solved by sitting at a physical table with Monopoly money.

Each party (Husband, BIL A, BIL B) is dealt $400. MIL also gets a Monopoly house. Husband and BIL B give their portions to BIL A, who puts it all back in the bank to represent purchase of the water heater.

Next, MIL gives the bank her house. The bank gives your MIL $1200. If your SIL says at this point that BIL A should give money back to MIL, it will be visibly obvious that he has no money to give to MIL. It went in the bank to pay for the water heater. The only money now in play is hers, from the sale of the house.

Next, MIL gives $1200 back to BIL A, who then gives $400 to Husband and $400 to BIL B. I think that's what SIL wanted and what is confusing her; she wants the money back from the same hands she originally gave it to. BIL B can then give his $400 back to MIL, representing his refusal to be paid back for his loan. Final results: water heater purchased, BIL A has $400, Husband has $400, BIL B has zero, MIL has $400.

Now everyone puts the money back in the bank to try this again. MIL gets $1200 from the bank for the sale of the house. This time, MIL gives $400 to Husband, $400 to BIL A, and tries to give $400 to BIL B. BIL B refuses. Final result is identical: water heater purchased, BIL A has $400, Husband has $400, BIL B has zero, MIL has $400.

Of course, it also sounds like what's really bothering SIL is that she thinks Husband and BIL A shouldn't have accepted their money back at all. She thinks they should have done what BIL B did and refused. That resentment, together with her conviction that the $1200 should have gone back to BIL A for redistribution, has her mental math all knotted up. But with physical props to play out the options, it will be clear that BIL A has no extra money lining his pockets.

Ummmmmmm, perhaps math wasn't her strongest subject?

Glad I'm not alone with this thought!

Maybe this can be solved by sitting at a physical table with Monopoly money.

Husband and I were thinking that we need to have physical objects to explain this to SIL. Maybe BIL B can do it since they are hundreds of miles away and we see them less than once a year!

Of course, it also sounds like what's really bothering SIL is that she thinks Husband and BIL A shouldn't have accepted their money back at all.

She should have lead with this!!! and I would have explained that this water heater payment is only a tiny amount compared to all that we have spent over the past 8 months. Why would we ask for reimbursement of everything except the water heater?? MIL had no problems paying her sons back and probably felt it was the least she can do for all they have done for her.

update-

BIL A reached out to BIL B telling him that if he needs any clarification on the money that was spent to call him. BIL A doesn't want any negative feelings between his brothers and wants everything to be resolved. No response from BIL B.

I also haven't heard anything from SIL. In the back of my mind, I want to make a digital video that physically shows how the money is spent and is gone and how MIL is the bank to pay everyone back. But I doubt it would be worth the effort.

MIL had no problems paying her sons back and probably felt it was the least she can do for all they have done for her.

Especially with a hoarding disorder in the mix! My parents were hoarders, so I'm painfully aware of the effort involved in getting such a house cleared out and ready for the market.

Unfortunately, a kid who lives remotely from their aging parent often armchair quarterbacks the siblings who are local and putting in the work. My brother and I disagree on many things, but I'm grateful that he understands the time I spend with our mom and is willing to let me call the plays.

Another angle...
This is their mom.
They are brothers.
Let THEM discuss this.
Let B talk to A or your husband if he has issues. Let B decide that since he wasn’t there to do the work, he forfeits his cash. Let A decide that since he’s there he can do some work. Let your husband decide that he can drop by to check on her daily, despite A only doing so once a week, and B being away. No accounting for time and some argument that because A did X then B and H are in debt or that two visits equate to one boiler or whatever.
Basically, LET THEM decide what they do and let THEM resolve their differences.

Of course, each brother needs to communicate with his partner and have some agreement there, but if B wife thinks B is being swindled on or manipulated, then she talks to him, and he – HE – brings it to his brothers. If he doesn’t want to do that – it’s an issue between wife and husband, not brother-to-brother.

I like what Bigger said. I am the sibling that moved away and did very well for myself. My siblings who remained in our home town did not share equally in the care of our hoarder widowed mother, with my sister taking more on than my brother. As the only child who had children and who lived across the country, I did my best to visit as often as possible and help as much as I could. I did my best to help with research, phone calls or any remote legwork I could do, and I wrote lots and lots of checks because I could afford to. My sister could afford to help financially as well, and in hindsight, we should have been more organized about tracking expenses. I have no issue with my share and want nothing but for there to be peace among us now that mom is gone.

The point of my story that is relevant to yours, besides I feel your frustration and know how hard all this can be, is that the heap of resentments and poor communications and assumptions that have happened since then are too many to recount. It’s a hard situation to resolve fairly and calmly when there are unspoken or behind the back resentments and accusations. Maybe some of that is happening here with your family.

You SIL not getting the basics of the accounting is one problem, but I wonder about the cards that are not on the table. It gets weird when there are spouses chiming in without having an open meeting with everybody there. In my case, it turns out a lot of my siblings’ resentments were due to our poor communications as a group, poor record keeping and poor memories. There is no amount of cash however, that will ease my sister’s resentment for the injustice she sees in my moving away and focusing on my own family, while she stayed behind and felt obligated, guilty and resentful. So complicated.

I hope you can all talk this through like adults. It seems a pretty simple math problem in my mind. In my family thought, it wasn’t just about the math, the costs and who paid, it was the feeling that something intangible was owed. I never told them every time I helped mom financially, only when I picked up the bill for a repair or replacement, or major item like building the handicap ramp on to the house. My mom got into massive credit debt, and I was able to get that written off after I caught them in predatory practices and threatened legal action. I talked to mom on the phone more than they talked to her in reality. I felt ok with what I was able to contribute. I thought we were all working together as a team, but we were a terrible team. I hope your BIL’s and SIL’s and you find a way to work this out, and clear the air of misconceptions and further resentments. We are still working through a lot of ours.

And again, sympathies for the hoarder house clean out. It is overwhelming and draining and it’s hard to process all the feelings of anger and sorrow over the waste of it all.

I agree with those who have suggested you remove yourself from the issue. Be a sounding board if H wants to talk about it, but this is really amongst the brothers... not their wives. It was wholly inappropriate for your SIL to try to talk to you about this - but at that point, you should have said you were staying out of it and to refer any comments to her H who can then bring them to your H if he feels it is necessary. You got swept up in the middle and look at how much it has upset you... you don't need that kind of drama in your life. Walk away and keep your sanity.

This is a hard stage and I am sorry you are having to deal with things like this and hoarding cleanup. Many of us can relate to what you are going through.